ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP

[James Ross]

Hello,

I am using SPSS 24 and I have an ANCOVA related question.

I have a 3 group (Treatment A, Treatment B, Control) repeated measures design.

I have a pretest and a posttest for each group.

I also measured a trait (Variable Y) that is a continuous (with a sum range between 10-50) variable. My hypothesis is that this variable will moderate effects of treatments.

I thought this was a simple ANCOVA process in SPSS, but I don't know what to put in "Dependent Variable," "Fixed Factor(s)," "Random Factor(s), "Covariate(s)." I am seeing these options under the "General Linear Model" - "Univariate" menu option.

In other words, where do I put these:

PreTest Sum
PostTest Sum
Group Assignment
Moderating Variable Y

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[Ryan]

Homework assignment?

Ryan

> On Sep 7, 2016, at 1:23 PM, James Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am using SPSS 24 and I have an ANCOVA related question.
>
> I have a 3 group (Treatment A, Treatment B, Control) repeated measures design.
>
> I have a pretest and a posttest for each group.
>
> I also measured a trait (Variable Y) that is a continuous (with a sum range between 10-50) variable. My hypothesis is that this variable will moderate effects of treatments.
>
> I thought this was a simple ANCOVA process in SPSS, but I don't know what to put in "Dependent Variable," "Fixed Factor(s)," "Random Factor(s), "Covariate(s)." I am seeing these options under the "General Linear Model" - "Univariate" menu option.
>
> In other words, where do I put these:
>
> PreTest Sum
> PostTest Sum
> Group Assignment
> Moderating Variable Y
>
> =====================
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
> [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
> command. To leave the list, send the command
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[Mike]

On: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 1:30 PM, Ryan Black wrote:
>
>Homework assignment?

Sounds like it.  Let me give a couple of hints:

(1) The OP actually has a 3 (group) by 2 (time) mixed design.
The description below is somewhat incoherent.

(2) A 3 x 2 mixed repeated measures ANOVA with a covariate
is simple enough to do -- especially if one looks at the syntax
pages for GLM in the SPSS program (or locates the SPSS
syntax guide PDF on their PC or Mac).

(3) I am troubled by the use of the term "moderate" because
I don't know if the OP is using it informally or he is really
interested in doing some sort of moderation analysis
(if the OP is unfamilliar with moderation analysis then he
should do a Google search for "mediation analysis",
"Kenny", and "Hayes".

(4) The OP can also look on the IBM SPSS website and
search for more information once the concepts are clearer
in his own mind and he might something useful, possibly
something like the following:
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLVMB_21.0.0/com.ibm.spss.statistics.help/syn_glm_overview_models.htm

Then again, I'm just spitballing here because my I-ESP is
not working all that well today.

-Mike Palij
New York University
[hidden email]

> On Sep 7, 2016, at 1:23 PM, James Ross wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am using SPSS 24 and I have an ANCOVA related question.
>
> I have a 3 group (Treatment A, Treatment B, Control) repeated measures
> design.
>
> I have a pretest and a posttest for each group.
>
> I also measured a trait (Variable Y) that is a continuous (with a sum
> range between 10-50) variable. My hypothesis is that this variable
> will moderate effects of treatments.
>
> I thought this was a simple ANCOVA process in SPSS, but I don't know
> what to put in "Dependent Variable," "Fixed Factor(s)," "Random
> Factor(s), "Covariate(s)." I am seeing these options under the
> "General Linear Model" - "Univariate" menu option.
>
> In other words, where do I put these:
>
> PreTest Sum
> PostTest Sum
> Group Assignment
> Moderating Variable Y
>
> =====================
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
> [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except
> the
> command. To leave the list, send the command
> SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
> For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
> INFO REFCARD

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[James Ross]

I should give more info since I believe my first message was interpreted as someone who is doing homework for a college or high school class. Here are the specifics of what I need help with:

I gathered data on 1000+ participants and measured their attitudes via a standardized measure that uses Likert scale responses. This measure which I'll call my attitude measure was given before and after an intervention.

There were three groups for the intervention. Participants were randomly assigned to Intervention Group A, Intervention Group B, and a control group. The control group was not given any intervention but did a random task. All three groups completed the Pre-Test and Posttest attitude measure. I am hypothesizing that Groups A's intervention post-test scores will be less than Group B's intervention post-test scores and that both A and B group's post-test scores will be less than the control group's post-test score.

In addition, before administering my attitude measure, I administered a scale that is meant to measure a specific pre-existing trait. This measure also uses Likert scale responses and produces an ordinal sum total ranging from 10 to 50. I'm calling this my moderating variable because I believe that the Pre and Post test scores will decrease even more for those that have a higher score on my trait measure. But I don't understand how to put all these scores in SPSS.

Someone earlier said that this was not an ANCOVA, but I thought any pre-post test comparisons with group assignments had to have the Pre-test scores put down as a Covariate? Plus I don't know where to put (what I believe is moderating) my trait measure score? Conceptually, isn't it also a covariate or is it something else?

I hope this clears up earlier message.
Thanks,
James

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[Bruce Weaver]

Given what you have said here and in your later post, I agree that ANCOVA (with both PreTestSum and Moderator as covariates) is generally preferred to 3x2 mixed design ANOVA that treats Time as a factor.  E.g., see this BMJ note:

  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121605/

In the GUI dialog for GLM > Univariate (UNIANOVA):

PostTest Sum = Dependent variable
Group Assignment = Fixed Factor
PreTest Sum = Covariate
Moderating Variable Y = Covariate

If you exit via PASTE, the key parts of the pasted syntax should look something like this:

UNIANOVA PostTestSum BY Group WITH PreTestSum Moderator
 /DESIGN = Group PreTestSum Moderator Group*Moderator
.

You'll have to fill in your own variable names, obviously.

Here is a fuller example that you may find helpful.  Notice the use of several EMMEANS to get the 3 pair-wise comparisons among groups at various values of the Moderator variable.  I set the value of PreTestSum to 50 for all of them, because the differences among treatment means will not depend on the value of PreTestSum if it does not interact with Group.  

HTH.


* Generate some sample data.
* The following code is a modified version of code Jeff Miller
* posted a couple days ago in another thread.

* Set the RNG seed so that the results are reproduced exactly.
set RNG=MT MTINDEX=121314.15.

new file.
input program.

compute #SampleSize = 50.

loop #i = 1 to #SampleSize.
   compute group = 1.
   compute PostTestSum = rv.normal(50,10).
   compute PreTestSum = rv.normal(50,10).
   compute Moderator = rv.uniform(10,50).
   end case.
end loop.
loop #i = 1 to #SampleSize.
   compute group = 2.
   compute PostTestSum = rv.normal(50,10).
   compute PreTestSum = rv.normal(50,10).
   compute Moderator = rv.uniform(10,50).
   end case.
end loop.
loop #i = 1 to #SampleSize.
   compute group = 3.
   compute PostTestSum = rv.normal(50,10).
   compute PreTestSum = rv.normal(50,10).
   compute Moderator = rv.uniform(10,50).
   end case.
end loop.

end file.
end input program.
execute.
formats group(f1).

UNIANOVA PostTestSum BY group WITH PreTestSum Moderator
  /DESIGN=PreTestSum Moderator group Moderator*group
  /EMMEANS=TABLES(group) WITH(PreTestSum=50 Moderator=10) COMPARE
  /EMMEANS=TABLES(group) WITH(PreTestSum=50 Moderator=20) COMPARE
  /EMMEANS=TABLES(group) WITH(PreTestSum=50 Moderator=30) COMPARE
  /EMMEANS=TABLES(group) WITH(PreTestSum=50 Moderator=40) COMPARE
  /EMMEANS=TABLES(group) WITH(PreTestSum=50 Moderator=50) COMPARE
.

James Ross wrote

Hello,

I am using SPSS 24 and I have an ANCOVA related question.

I have a 3 group (Treatment A, Treatment B, Control) repeated measures design.

I have a pretest and a posttest for each group.

I also measured a trait (Variable Y) that is a continuous (with a sum range between 10-50) variable. My hypothesis is that this variable will moderate effects of treatments.

I thought this was a simple ANCOVA process in SPSS, but I don't know what to put in "Dependent Variable," "Fixed Factor(s)," "Random Factor(s), "Covariate(s)." I am seeing these options under the "General Linear Model" - "Univariate" menu option.

In other words, where do I put these:

PreTest Sum
PostTest Sum
Group Assignment
Moderating Variable Y

=====================
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[Maguin, Eugene]

(Others) Credibility established. But, wasn't this a more complex homework problem than would be expected on first or second week of the semester?

To add to what Bruce posted.

If the TX*PET term  (PET = pre-existing trait) is significant, you'll need to look at a moderation analysis, which has an established literature (and a downloadable spss macro). One key name is Kristopher Preacher (quantpsy.org); another is Andrew Hayes.
Gene Maguin












-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Ross
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 5:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP

I should give more info since I believe my first message was interpreted as someone who is doing homework for a college or high school class. Here are the specifics of what I need help with:

I gathered data on 1000+ participants and measured their attitudes via a standardized measure that uses Likert scale responses. This measure which I'll call my attitude measure was given before and after an intervention.

There were three groups for the intervention. Participants were randomly assigned to Intervention Group A, Intervention Group B, and a control group. The control group was not given any intervention but did a random task. All three groups completed the Pre-Test and Posttest attitude measure. I am hypothesizing that Groups A's intervention post-test scores will be less than Group B's intervention post-test scores and that both A and B group's post-test scores will be less than the control group's post-test score.

In addition, before administering my attitude measure, I administered a scale that is meant to measure a specific pre-existing trait. This measure also uses Likert scale responses and produces an ordinal sum total ranging from 10 to 50. I'm calling this my moderating variable because I believe that the Pre and Post test scores will decrease even more for those that have a higher score on my trait measure. But I don't understand how to put all these scores in SPSS.

Someone earlier said that this was not an ANCOVA, but I thought any pre-post test comparisons with group assignments had to have the Pre-test scores put down as a Covariate? Plus I don't know where to put (what I believe is moderating) my trait measure score? Conceptually, isn't it also a covariate or is it something else?

I hope this clears up earlier message.
Thanks,
James

=====================
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=====================
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[Bruce Weaver]

Hi Gene.  Just out of curiosity, why would the macros you refer too add to what you get from the EMMEANS sub-commands I included?  They show the pair-wise comparisons among the 3 groups at selected levels of the moderator variable.  (You weren't thinking about mediation, by any chance, were you?  That's a completely different kettle of fish.)

Cheers,
Bruce

Maguin, Eugene wrote

(Others) Credibility established. But, wasn't this a more complex homework problem than would be expected on first or second week of the semester?

To add to what Bruce posted.

If the TX*PET term  (PET = pre-existing trait) is significant, you'll need to look at a moderation analysis, which has an established literature (and a downloadable spss macro). One key name is Kristopher Preacher (quantpsy.org); another is Andrew Hayes.
Gene Maguin












-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Ross
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 5:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP

I should give more info since I believe my first message was interpreted as someone who is doing homework for a college or high school class. Here are the specifics of what I need help with:

I gathered data on 1000+ participants and measured their attitudes via a standardized measure that uses Likert scale responses. This measure which I'll call my attitude measure was given before and after an intervention.

There were three groups for the intervention. Participants were randomly assigned to Intervention Group A, Intervention Group B, and a control group. The control group was not given any intervention but did a random task. All three groups completed the Pre-Test and Posttest attitude measure. I am hypothesizing that Groups A's intervention post-test scores will be less than Group B's intervention post-test scores and that both A and B group's post-test scores will be less than the control group's post-test score.

In addition, before administering my attitude measure, I administered a scale that is meant to measure a specific pre-existing trait. This measure also uses Likert scale responses and produces an ordinal sum total ranging from 10 to 50. I'm calling this my moderating variable because I believe that the Pre and Post test scores will decrease even more for those that have a higher score on my trait measure. But I don't understand how to put all these scores in SPSS.

Someone earlier said that this was not an ANCOVA, but I thought any pre-post test comparisons with group assignments had to have the Pre-test scores put down as a Covariate? Plus I don't know where to put (what I believe is moderating) my trait measure score? Conceptually, isn't it also a covariate or is it something else?

I hope this clears up earlier message.
Thanks,
James

=====================
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=====================
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[Maguin, Eugene]

Hi Bruce,
I read the first part of your message, where you described how to fill in the menu fields and which answered the posted question, but I didn't scroll down to read the rest of your message. My mistake. Functionally, there is no difference that I know of between using EMMEANS and using either Preacher's website or Hayes' macro. Like you said, when using EMMEANS, he will need to cycle through values of the covariate to identify point (or points) where the region(s) of significance begin. That will have to be done twice by twice, twice for TX group 1 and twice for TX group 2 because he will need to establish whether there is an upper, lower, or both region of significance for each TX group value. Those iterations is hidden in website and macro.
Gene Maguin




-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bruce Weaver
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 12:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP

Hi Gene.  Just out of curiosity, why would the macros you refer too add to what you get from the EMMEANS sub-commands I included?  They show the pair-wise comparisons among the 3 groups at selected levels of the moderator variable.  (You weren't thinking about mediation, by any chance, were you?
That's a completely different kettle of fish.)

Cheers,
Bruce



Maguin, Eugene wrote

> (Others) Credibility established. But, wasn't this a more complex
> homework problem than would be expected on first or second week of the semester?
>
> To add to what Bruce posted.
>
> If the TX*PET term  (PET = pre-existing trait) is significant, you'll
> need to look at a moderation analysis, which has an established
> literature (and a downloadable spss macro). One key name is Kristopher
> Preacher (quantpsy.org); another is Andrew Hayes.
> Gene Maguin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:

> SPSSX-L@.UGA

> ] On Behalf Of James Ross
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 5:13 PM
> To:

> SPSSX-L@.UGA

> Subject: Re: ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP
>
> I should give more info since I believe my first message was
> interpreted as someone who is doing homework for a college or high
> school class. Here are the specifics of what I need help with:
>
> I gathered data on 1000+ participants and measured their attitudes via
> a standardized measure that uses Likert scale responses. This measure
> which I'll call my attitude measure was given before and after an intervention.
>
> There were three groups for the intervention. Participants were
> randomly assigned to Intervention Group A, Intervention Group B, and a
> control group. The control group was not given any intervention but
> did a random task. All three groups completed the Pre-Test and
> Posttest attitude measure. I am hypothesizing that Groups A's
> intervention post-test scores will be less than Group B's intervention
> post-test scores and that both A and B group's post-test scores will
> be less than the control group's post-test score.
>
> In addition, before administering my attitude measure, I administered
> a scale that is meant to measure a specific pre-existing trait. This
> measure also uses Likert scale responses and produces an ordinal sum
> total ranging from 10 to 50. I'm calling this my moderating variable
> because I believe that the Pre and Post test scores will decrease even
> more for those that have a higher score on my trait measure. But I
> don't understand how to put all these scores in SPSS.
>
> Someone earlier said that this was not an ANCOVA, but I thought any
> pre-post test comparisons with group assignments had to have the
> Pre-test scores put down as a Covariate? Plus I don't know where to
> put (what I believe is moderating) my trait measure score?
> Conceptually, isn't it also a covariate or is it something else?
>
> I hope this clears up earlier message.
> Thanks,
> James
>
> =====================
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to

> LISTSERV@.UGA

>  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the
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> manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
>
> =====================
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-----
--
Bruce Weaver
[hidden email]
http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/

"When all else fails, RTFM."

NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.

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[Bruce Weaver]

Hi Gene, and thanks for clarifying.  IIRC, the macros by Hayes et al. use the Johnson-Neyman method to identify regions of significance and non-significance.  I have a dim recollection of seeing a plot of a cross-over interaction with different shading for the regions where the differences (distances) between the two Y-values at a given X were and were not statistically significant.  This is the closest approximation I can find quickly:

http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net/index.php/fnr/article/viewFile/25932/39084/154751

This approach has always made me a bit uncomfortable, because I think it focuses too much attention (and importance) on statistical significance.  I think it would be better to ask oneself how large a difference between the Y-values (for a given value of X) is practically important, and then check to see if one has statistical significance at that point.  

But as Art K would say, YMMV!

Cheers,
Bruce

Maguin, Eugene wrote

Hi Bruce,
I read the first part of your message, where you described how to fill in the menu fields and which answered the posted question, but I didn't scroll down to read the rest of your message. My mistake. Functionally, there is no difference that I know of between using EMMEANS and using either Preacher's website or Hayes' macro. Like you said, when using EMMEANS, he will need to cycle through values of the covariate to identify point (or points) where the region(s) of significance begin. That will have to be done twice by twice, twice for TX group 1 and twice for TX group 2 because he will need to establish whether there is an upper, lower, or both region of significance for each TX group value. Those iterations is hidden in website and macro.
Gene Maguin




-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bruce Weaver
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 12:22 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP

Hi Gene.  Just out of curiosity, why would the macros you refer too add to what you get from the EMMEANS sub-commands I included?  They show the pair-wise comparisons among the 3 groups at selected levels of the moderator variable.  (You weren't thinking about mediation, by any chance, were you?
That's a completely different kettle of fish.)

Cheers,
Bruce



Maguin, Eugene wrote
> (Others) Credibility established. But, wasn't this a more complex
> homework problem than would be expected on first or second week of the semester?
>
> To add to what Bruce posted.
>
> If the TX*PET term  (PET = pre-existing trait) is significant, you'll
> need to look at a moderation analysis, which has an established
> literature (and a downloadable spss macro). One key name is Kristopher
> Preacher (quantpsy.org); another is Andrew Hayes.
> Gene Maguin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:

> SPSSX-L@.UGA

> ] On Behalf Of James Ross
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 5:13 PM
> To:

> SPSSX-L@.UGA

> Subject: Re: ANCOVA SPSS Question HELP
>
> I should give more info since I believe my first message was
> interpreted as someone who is doing homework for a college or high
> school class. Here are the specifics of what I need help with:
>
> I gathered data on 1000+ participants and measured their attitudes via
> a standardized measure that uses Likert scale responses. This measure
> which I'll call my attitude measure was given before and after an intervention.
>
> There were three groups for the intervention. Participants were
> randomly assigned to Intervention Group A, Intervention Group B, and a
> control group. The control group was not given any intervention but
> did a random task. All three groups completed the Pre-Test and
> Posttest attitude measure. I am hypothesizing that Groups A's
> intervention post-test scores will be less than Group B's intervention
> post-test scores and that both A and B group's post-test scores will
> be less than the control group's post-test score.
>
> In addition, before administering my attitude measure, I administered
> a scale that is meant to measure a specific pre-existing trait. This
> measure also uses Likert scale responses and produces an ordinal sum
> total ranging from 10 to 50. I'm calling this my moderating variable
> because I believe that the Pre and Post test scores will decrease even
> more for those that have a higher score on my trait measure. But I
> don't understand how to put all these scores in SPSS.
>
> Someone earlier said that this was not an ANCOVA, but I thought any
> pre-post test comparisons with group assignments had to have the
> Pre-test scores put down as a Covariate? Plus I don't know where to
> put (what I believe is moderating) my trait measure score?
> Conceptually, isn't it also a covariate or is it something else?
>
> I hope this clears up earlier message.
> Thanks,
> James
>
> =====================
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to

> LISTSERV@.UGA

>  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the
> list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to
> manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
>
> =====================
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to

> LISTSERV@.UGA

>  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the
> list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to
> manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD





-----
--
Bruce Weaver
[hidden email]
http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/

"When all else fails, RTFM."

NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.

--
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