OK guys: off you go, and pass on to R, Stata, SAS listservers.
John Hall
PS The added R is because I copied the article title which had ® after the
software names.
From: Brian Ward [mailto:
[hidden email]]
Sent: 21 February 2013 21:03
To: John F Hall
Subject: Re: FW: What's Better-R, SASR, SPSSR, or StataR?
John,
I would have no problem if you would like to post my reply to the listserv.
I also think your idea of a follow-up in JASS is an interesting one.
However, I was wondering if it might make more sense for you and some of the
other folks to work on a response for JASS? My rationale here is two-fold.
First, as everyone has had different experiences working with software, and
different knowledge of these softwares, perhaps it may be more useful to
JASS readers to have a different set of individuals work on drafting their
own "Table 1." From the listserv conversation you have been holding, they
clearly are more heavily involved in SPSS, could provide a different
perspective, and would pick up differences that I may have missed.
Secondly, it would also be great to get a different perspective on what
software may be best to use for undergraduate statistics/research methods
courses, and the rationale behind this perspective. After trying to think
critically on what software may be most useful, I believe SAS was the answer
for the students I teach. However, I am certain that in other situations,
for other students, the answer could very well be different a software
program, such as SPSS. As I mentioned in the manuscript, there is no uniform
answer to the question of "what's better" to teach in a social science
statistics/research methods class. Rather it depends on a handful of
different considerations, and it would be great to hear your and other
perspectives.
The editors at JASS were great to work with, and I would hope they would be
open to publishing such a response. As you know, many journals allow authors
to write a response to manuscripts previously published, and I would hope
JASS would feel the same. And feel free to let the folks at JASS know we
have been conversing regarding my teaching note, if this is needed. I would
be more than happy to receive constructive feedback on this piece,
especially if it could ultimately enhance the knowledge gained by our
undergraduates in the classroom, and better help prepare them for
post-graduation employment!
Sincerely,
Brian
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 9:44 AM, John F Hall <
[hidden email]> wrote:
Brian
David Marso can be a bit abrupt, and many people ignore him when hes
downright rude. He did however write much of the code for SPSS. Marta
Garcia-Granero and Bruce Weaver both use SPSS in teaching, but Marta has had
to rewrite all her teaching materials in Stata as her university has
switched on financial grounds. Many others are following suit, some for
entrenched disciplinary reasons. Art Kendall is retired and has access to
SPSS, which, like me, hes been using since 1972. Jon Peck works for SPSS.
No-one else on the SPSS list has picked up on this, but there may be other
ripostes later. Im surpirised ViAnn Beadle hasnt answered: she was with
SPSS from the beginning and only recently retired after designing the GUI
and graphics interface.
Perhaps you should consider a follow-up note for JASS bringing the table up
to date?
How would you feel about posting your reply and mine to the list?
John
From: Brian Ward [mailto:
[hidden email]]
Sent: 21 February 2013 14:53
To: John F Hall
Subject: Re: FW: What's Better-R, SASR, SPSSR, or StataR?
John,
Thank you for showing me feedback regarding this manuscript, specifically
the usage of SPSS. Obviously it appears that my usage and knowledge of SPSS
was not as extensive as the current capabilities of SPSS allow; and having
this noted is something improtant I will keep in mind.
In addition to mentioning similarities/ differences between software, the
ultimate goal of this manuscript was to encourage instructors to think
critically about which software is used in their courses, and what may be
the most beneficial to their undergraduate students (including gaining a
better chance of post-graduation employment). This was an issue I myself
faced when deciding whether to teach a software packing in my undergraduate
courses that I do not primarily use in my own research, and was forced to
think very critically about making this decision. While I found a number of
online resources, a few of which did compare software packages, I found
little to no information on this topic written from the perspective of a
social science instructor who teaches applied statsitics/research methods.
Thus, my motiviation for writing this teaching note.
That being said, I hope you and the remainder of the SPSS listserv in which
you are a participant have found this manuscript to be useful in having this
conversation.
All the best,
Brian
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:20 PM, John F Hall <
[hidden email]> wrote:
Brian
Thought you should see these comments from experts on the SPSS listserver.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
David Marso
Sent: 20 February 2013 23:52
To:
[hidden email]Subject: Re: What's Better-R, SASR, SPSSR, or StataR?
Wow, No Looping or Macros or User Programs?
BOSH! WTH have I been doing for the past 20+ years?
I suspect Ward has minimal experience with "advanced?" SPSS features ;-)
---
Bruce Weaver wrote
> I also do not agree with all of the pluses and minuses in Table 1.
> E.g., SPSS is given a minus for "Simple recode syntax/procedures".
> The RECODE syntax could not be much simpler, IMO. Perhaps Ward is
> referring more to the GUI dialog for RECODE. ;-)
>
> It's not clear to me from the article how much actual experience Ward
> has with each of these packages. The review by Mitchell (from UCLA
> Statistical Computing) that appeared a few years ago is now dated --
> e.g., I think SPSS did not even have GENLIN when he wrote it. But the
> think I liked about it was that Mitchell clearly had lots of hands-on
> experience with all the packages he discussed. IIRC, they included
> SPSS, SAS, Stata and maybe R.
>
> Cheers,
> Bruce
> Marta García-Granero-2 wrote
>> I got it (using the University library resources).
>>
>> I don't agree with some "-" or "-/+" SPSS gets in table 1.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Marta
>>
>> El 19/02/2013 18:51, J. R. Carroll escribió:
>>> meh, I probably should have said "to solicit interest from the
>>> listserv to pester Brian to give it to us"
>>>
>>> And by "pester", I jest.
>>>
>>> But, I agree - the paper should be sent next round. I always enjoy
>>> free scholarly papers :P
>>>
>>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>>
>>> J. R. Carroll
>>> Independent Researcher through Hurtz Labs Research Methods, Test
>>> Development, and Statistics www.jrcresearch.net
<
http://www.jrcresearch.net/>
>>> <
http://www.jrcresearch.net/ <
http://www.jrcresearch.net/>> >
>>> www.ontvp.com <
http://www.ontvp.com/> <
http://www.ontvp.com<
http://www.ontvp.com/> >
>>> Cell: (650) 776-6613 <tel:%28650%29%20776-6613>
>>> Email:
>> jrcarroll@
>> <mailto:
>> jrcarroll@
>> >
>>>
>> jrcarroll@
>> <mailto:
>> jrcarroll@
>> >
>>>
>> jrc.csus@
>> <mailto:
>> jrc.csus@
>> >
>>> <
https://www.facebook.com/J.R.Car<
https://www.facebook.com/J.R.Car%3E%3Chttps:/twitter.com/jNam>><
https://twitter.com/jNam>>> mer><
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jrcarroll<
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jrcarroll>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:47 PM, David Marso <
>> david.marso@
>> > <mailto:
>> david.marso@
>> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hard to read a paper when there is only an abstract ;-(
>>> --
>>>
>>> J. R. Carroll-3 wrote
>>> > I don't think there is one. I think John took an off-list
>>> conversation to
>>> > the list as a way to solicit responses for Brian's paper.
>>> >
>>> > My apologies if I assumed too much, John.
>>> >
>>> > -j
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > J. R. Carroll
>>> > Independent Researcher through Hurtz Labs
>>> > Research Methods, Test Development, and Statistics
>>> > www.jrcresearch.net <
http://www.jrcresearch.net/><
http://www.jrcresearch.net <
http://www.jrcresearch.net/> >
>>> > www.ontvp.com <
http://www.ontvp.com/> <
http://www.ontvp.com<
http://www.ontvp.com/> >
>>> > Cell: (650) 776-6613 <tel:%28650%29%20776-6613>
<tel:%28650%29%20776-6613>
>>> > Email:
>>>
>>> > jrcarroll@
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > jrcarroll@
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > jrc.csus@
>>>
>>> > <
https://www.facebook.com/J.R.Car<
https://www.facebook.com/J.R.Car>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> <
https://twitter.com/jNammer<
https://twitter.com/jNammer%3E%3Chttp:/www.linkedin.com/in/jrcarroll>>><
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jrcarroll>>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Art Kendall <
>>>
>>> > Art@
>>>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I don't see the original post to which this is a reply.
>>> >>
>>> >> Art Kendall
>>> >> Social Research Consultants
>>> >>
>>> >> On 2/19/2013 4:55 AM, John F Hall wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Brian****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Just had a quick look through your paper. Very
>>> thought-provoking. I
>>> >> particularly like your approach aimed at future employment
>>> prospects for
>>> >> students. This mirrors my reasoning in setting up the Social
>>> Research
>>> >> Option of the BA Applied Social Studies at the then Polytechnic
>>> of North
>>> >> London in 1976. In those days, given its universal adoption by
>>> academia
>>> >> and the public sector, plus the availability of the manual in
>>> any decent
>>> >> bookshop, the only sensible software option was SPSS.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> I take your point about the constraints on course design: the
>>> final
>>> >> 1991-92 version of my SPSS-syntax-based undergraduate course
>>> was taken in
>>> >> semester 2 of their second year. It consisted of 13 weeks x 3
>>> hour
>>> >> sessions, comprising one hour of formal teaching followed by a
>>> practical
>>> >> computer lab session (in two shifts of half a class each)
>>> closing with a
>>> >> short discussion of students output. Week 14 was for
>>> assessment. ****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> On using syntax (my unashamed preference over point-and-click)
>>> see the
>>> >> syllabus and specimen assessment for the original course on my
>>> site.
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> The examples are from 1992, but the same syllabus and
>>> assessment format
>>> >> was used for 10 years or so before then. I cant give a direct
>>> URL for
>>> >> them, but you can access them in pdf format from the links
>>> on:****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/background-to-current-project.html****>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> *Survey Analysis Workshop Syllabus*
>>> >>
>>> >> * ***
>>> >>
>>> >> Syllabus for postgraduate course Survey Analysis Workshop
>>> (using SPSS)
>>> >> taught at Polytechnic of North London as at March 1992. Forms
>>> basis for
>>> >> updated course materials on this website****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> *Survey Analysis Workshop: specimen assessment*
>>> >>
>>> >> * *
>>> >>
>>> >> Specimen assessment for course, as distributed to students.
>>> Gives an idea
>>> >> of the sort of things you should understand and have learned to
>>> do by the
>>> >> end of the course.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Students were then able to go to their professional placements
>>> in their 3
>>> >> rd year with a fair degree of technical competence, but always
>>> had free
>>> >> access to the Polytechnicservices (data-prep, printing,
>>> computing) and
>>> >> to
>>> >> myself for professional advice and assistance. Our students
>>> were always
>>> >> in great demand and some very impressive research was done for
>>> their
>>> >> placement agencies, some resulting in professional publications
>>> with the
>>> >> student as first author. Many of our students were offered
>>> jobs in these
>>> >> agencies before they even came back for their 4th year in
>>> college.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> The undergraduate course was originally in the 4th year, and
>>> therefore
>>> >> not first taught until 1980, but was brought forward into
>>> year 2 in
>>> >> around
>>> >> 1982. It was effectively the same as the highly acclaimed
>>> and much
>>> >> sought-after *Survey Analysis Workshop*, a postgraduate course
>>> >> (practice-oriented, hands-on, part-time, evening) I started in
>>> 1976.
>>> >> Great
>>> >> students, great fun. Materials from the latter have now been
>>> converted,
>>> >> updated and greatly expanded as a Teach-Yourself course using
>>> SPSS (19)
>>> >> for
>>> >> Windows. The full course is now available on:
>>> >>
>>>
http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/1-survey-analysis-workshop.html>>> but I
>>> >> still have a lot more tutorials and exercises to write, check,
>>> >> upload.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> On looking at your table comparing the capabilities of R, SAS,
>>> Stata and
>>> >> SPSS, Im not sure youre right about SPSS and large files. Ive
>>> >> recently been using SPSS19 on files with 35,600 (European
>>> Social Survey)
>>> >> and 163,200 respondents (National Well-Being Survey). Your
>>> table also
>>> >> shows SPSS having limitations for simple recode/syntax
>>> procedures. I
>>> >> disagree: this is where SPSS reigns supreme (at least if its
>>> used in
>>> >> syntax mode). Lower down the table you indicate limitations in
>>> SPSS for
>>> >> handling different data formats and for export to Excel etc.
>>> Colleagues
>>> >> on the SPSS-X list-server are better able to comment on that.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> What is the copyright position for wider distribution of your
>>> article?
>>> >> Is
>>> >> it yours or does it reside with Sage? I think you/they should
>>> consider
>>> >> circulating it to the SPSS-X listerver and the Quantitative
>>> methods
>>> >> teaching group and also to user-groups for SAS, R and Stata.
>>> This should
>>> >> result in a cascade of responses from a range of very
>>> experienced users
>>> >> (and programmers) which you could use in a follow-up article.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Meanwhile Ill dig out a few simple exercises from my tutorials
>>> and ask
>>> >> colleagues versed in R, Stata (*and SAS?) to replicate them:
>>> Id still
>>> >> like to see them side-by-side with notes of how easy/hard they
>>> are and
>>> >> how
>>> >> long they take to do.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Best wishes, and thanks again for the sight of your article.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> John****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> John F Hall (Mr)****
>>> >>
>>> >> [retired academic survey researcher]****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Email:
>>>
>>> > johnfhall@
>>>
>>> > ****
>>> >>
>>> >> Website: www.surveyresearch.weebly.com
<
http://www.surveyresearch.weebly.com/>
>>> <
http://www.surveyresearch.weebly.com<
http://www.surveyresearch.weebly.com/> >
>>> >> <
http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/<
http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/>> >
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> *From:* John F Hall [mailto:
>>>
>>> > johnfhall@
>>>
>>> > <
>>>
>>> > johnfhall@
>>>
>>> > >]
>>> >> *Sent:* 19 February 2013 08:37
>>> >> *To:* 'Brian Ward'
>>> >> *Subject:* RE: What's Better-R, SASR, SPSSR, or StataR?****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Brian****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Many thanks for this. Ill check it out as soon as Ive had my
>>> breakfast
>>> >> and get back to you. ****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> Your students may find my website useful: everything is freely
>>> >> downloadable.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> John****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> *From:* Brian Ward [mailto:
>>>
>>> > bwward3@
>>>
>>> > <
>>>
>>> > bwward3@
>>>
>>> > >]
>>> >> *Sent:* 19 February 2013 05:25
>>> >> *To:* John F Hall
>>> >> *Subject:* Re: What's Better-R, SASR, SPSSR, or StataR?****
>>> >>
>>> >> ** **
>>> >>
>>> >> John,****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> I would be happy to send you a copy of my manuscript (see
>>> attached).
>>> >> However, it is a very brief teaching note (truncated by the
>>> request of
>>> >> the
>>> >> journal) that was meant to simply encourage conversation among
>>> college
>>> >> instructors on what statistical software to use. It is
>>> non-technical, and
>>> >> based on your conversation below, it may not be precisely what
>>> you are
>>> >> looking for. Regardless, I hope it may help to some extent.****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> All the best,****
>>> >>
>>> >> Brian****
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 4:44 AM, John F Hall <
>>>
>>> > johnfhall@
>>>
>>> > > wrote:*
>>> >> ***
>>> >>
>>> >> Dear Brian****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> Your recent JASS paper *Whats BetterR, SAS®, SPSS®, or
>>> Stata®? Thoughts
>>> >> for Instructors of Statistics and Research Methods
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
Courses<
http://jax.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/01/21/1936724412450570.
abstract?utm_content=Visibility_and_reach_O
<
http://jax.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/01/21/1936724412450570.abstract?utm_content=Visibility_and_reach_O&utm_medium=social_Twitter&utm_campaign=G_A
LL_T_2012&utm_source=open&keytype=ref&siteid=spjax&utm_term=Sociology&ijkey=
YyG8yvdawCyw6>>
&utm_medium=social_Twitter&utm_campaign=G_ALL_T_2012&utm_source=
open&keytype=ref&siteid=spjax&utm_term=Sociology&ijkey=YyG8y
vdawCyw6>
>>> >> * was highlighted in a recent
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
discussion<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/group/makingresearchreal/forum/topics/spss-sas-stata-or-r-what-s-best-for-teaching
<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/group/makingresearchreal/forum/topics/spss-sas-stata-or-r-what-s-best-for-teaching%3Ebetween> >between
>>> >> teachers of quantitative methods in the social sciences for which
>>> >> significant funding has been allocated by the Nuffield
>>> Foundation, the
>>> >> Higher Education Academy and the Economic and Social Research
>>> Council.
>>> >> **
>>> >> **
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> There are currently several discussions on the SPSS-X
>>> listserver, the QM
>>> >> teachers forum and the above Natcen hosted site. The first
>>> theme centres
>>> >> on the use of syntax vs GUI in SPSS; the second has champions
>>> of R, Stata
>>> >> etc. over SPSS (for survey analysis); the third reveals
>>> significant
>>> >> differences between disciplines in what should be taught, and how
>>> >> (including trawls for recommended introductory teaching
>>> materials).****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >>
http://www.quantitativemethods.ac.uk<
http://www.quantitativemethods.ac.uk/> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> *********************************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> QM Teachers' Mailing list****
>>> >>
>>> >> subscribe at
>>>
>>> > quantitative_methods_teaching-join@.ac
>>>
>>> > ****
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> *********************************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> QM teaching blog:
http://qmteaching.wordpress.com/****>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> *********************************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> Resources for teaching QM available at:****
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
http://www.esrc.ac.uk/funding-and-guidance/tools-and-resources/undergraduate-QM/index.aspx
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> Here is my initial message to the new Natcen-hosted group:****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> I've just joined this group, so feeling my way tentatively
>>> around.****
>>> >>
>>> >> Members may like to look at my website, Journeys in Survey
>>> >>
>>> Research,<
http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/index.html<
http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/index.html%3Ebased> >based on
>>> >> almost 50 years working in survey research and teaching research
>>> >> methods. ****
>>> >>
>>> >> The site has three main components:
>>> >>
>>> >> *1:*
>>> >>
>>>
>>> <
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/1-survey-analysis-workshop.html<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/1-survey-analysis-workshop.html%3E*Survey>>*Survey
>>> >> Analysis Workshop
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
(SPSS)*<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/1-survey-analysis-workshop.html<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/1-survey-analysis-workshop.html>> >
>>> >> *2: **Survey Research
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
Practice*<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/2-survey-research-practice.html<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/2-survey-research-practice.html>> >
>>> >> *3: **Subjective Social Indicators (Quality of
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
Life)*<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/3-subjective-social-indicators-quality-of-life.html
<
http://natcenlearning.ning.com/3-subjective-social-indicators-quality-of-life.html>> >
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> The first derives from the SPSS-based courses in data
>>> management and
>>> >> analysis I designed and taught at SSRC Summer Schools from 1972
>>> to 1976
>>> >> and
>>> >> to postgrads and undergrads at the then Polytechnic of North
>>> London from
>>> >> 1976 to 1992, when I took early retirement. Learning materials
>>> from these
>>> >> courses have now been converted, updated and greatly revised
>>> for use with
>>> >> SPSS for Windows. So far there are 450+ pages of teach-youself
>>> tutorias
>>> >> with not an equation yet in sight. They are syntax-based (but
>>> many
>>> >> examples
>>> >> and exercises are repeated using the GUI menus. They are aimed
>>> at total
>>> >> newbies, and assume no previous experience, but even experienced
>>> >> researchers and teachers may learn a thing or two from them.****
>>> >>
>>> >> The second contains links to useful on-line resources for
>>> survey research
>>> >> plus a wealth of (not easily available, if at all) materials
>>> from my time
>>> >> at the then SSRC Survey Unit and my own Survey research Unit
>>> at the
>>> >> Polytechnic of North London.****
>>> >>
>>> >> The third is a new section created when the contents grew too
>>> large for
>>> >> the second. It covers all the Quality of Life in Britain
>>> surveys I did
>>> >> with
>>> >> Mark Abrams from 1971 to 1975 and links to other previous and
>>> ccurrent
>>> >> subjective social indicator work in UK, Europe and the USA.****
>>> >>
>>> >> Whilst not explicitly oriented to the teaching of quantitative
>>> methods,
>>> >> my
>>> >> own students found they learned more statistics from my courses
>>> than they
>>> >> did from the offical stats course. ****
>>> >>
>>> >> Indeed the new degree I was appointed to design and head up at
>>> PNL in
>>> >> 1976
>>> >> (BA Applied Social Studies, Social Research Option) was openly
>>> intended
>>> >> to
>>> >> remedy the pathetic state of QM teaching to social science
>>> students in UK
>>> >> universities, the bulk of which could be attributed to the poor
>>> quality
>>> >> of
>>> >> supervisors, anti-pathy to empiricism, but most of all to a
>>> lack of
>>> >> numeracy in undergraduates.****
>>> >>
>>> >> Feedback on the site from colleagues and students has been very
>>> positive:
>>> >> hopefully members will feel the same.****
>>> >>
>>> >> Im particularly interested in comparisons of SPSS with other
>>> software to
>>> >> perform the same tasks as those in the SPSS syntax-based
>>> tutorials on my
>>> >> website, particularly the very early ones. I have been in
>>> correspondence
>>> >> with Laurie Moseley (Emeritus Pofessor, Health Services Research,
>>> >> Glamorgan) about R, which I downloaded two days ago to check it
>>> out.
>>> >> Heres an extract from what I said to him:****
>>> >> ------------------------------
>>> >>
>>> >> *There are three main issues for me: first that some people
>>> (mainly
>>> >> statisticians, psychologists and econometricians) dont seem to
>>> be able
>>> >> to
>>> >> think outside their disciplinary box; second, that they
>>> misunderstand my
>>> >> approach using SPSS syntax as a route to understanding the
>>> language and
>>> >> logic of (survey) data analysis and to acquiring marketable
>>> technical and
>>> >> quantitative skills; third that they seem to define survey
>>> analysis as
>>> >> dealing with complex sample designs, imputed data, survey error
>>> etc (look
>>> >> at the course outlines) and miss the original point of the
>>> research
>>> >> question. As John Tukey once said, All the statistics in the
>>> world
>>> >> wont
>>> >> save you if you asked the wrong question in the first
>>> place!*****
>>> >>
>>> >> * *****
>>> >>
>>> >> *Some listers recommend R over SPSS: I just downloaded it and
>>> barely got
>>> >> past page 1 of the manual. For my kind of students its complete
>>> >> gobble-de-gook. Others recommend Stata (mainly because of the
>>> price
>>> >> differential) but Ive never seen side-by-side examples of
>>> Stata and SPSS
>>> >> syntax for the same exercise, but I have neither time nor
>>> inclination to
>>> >> learn yet another software application.*****
>>> >>
>>> >> * *****
>>> >>
>>> >> *Im sticking with SPSS (and with the substantive content of
>>> the surveys
>>> >> Im working with). My pedagogic approach was always learning
>>> by doing,
>>> >> with a view to eventual employment as social researchers. I
>>> always used
>>> >> actual data from real surveys and peppered my classes with
>>> anecdotes from
>>> >> years of field experience: I doubt if many current tutors have
>>> much of
>>> >> the
>>> >> latter, if any. My course was, and still is, unique, and
>>> probably more
>>> >> fun. Aged 72, I just want to get the rest of it finished
>>> before I pop my
>>> >> clogs.*****
>>> >> ------------------------------
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >> I checked the link to your paper, but only got the abstract.
>>> As an early
>>> >> retired academic on a fractional pension, I cant afford to
>>> subscribe to
>>> >> journals: is there any chance you could let me have a copy of
>>> the paper
>>> >> so
>>> >> that I can see the side-by-side examples? ****
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
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