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Message formats on list (snips from SPSSX-L Digest - 8 Nov 2010 to 9 Nov 2010 (#2010-315))

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Allan Reese (Cefas)

Message formats on list (snips from SPSSX-L Digest - 8 Nov 2010 to 9 Nov 2010 (#2010-315))

I'm finding the list digest increasingly hard to read because messages
appear to be source code (for HTML or other) or non-alphanumeric codes
have been expressed as character sequences.

Are the problems more readily solved by:
1) senders remembering to send only plain text
2) the list-server being enhanced to recognise other formats
3) switching some option that I don't know exists in Outlook
4) screaming insults at Microsoft who seem behind all corporate
blindness on standards and inter-operability?

I've added three arbitrary examples below, but have no idea what you
will see when they arrive.
Allan

From: Mark Webb <[hidden email]>
Subject: Fwd: Confusion with Linear Mixed Models - Repeated Measures

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
 
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">

AND

--20cf3054a0395c589804949c7255
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry, the quote is a problem with Spanish language, we use the
','=
instead of the '.' for decimal position. 

 

It's not that i don't want to use Time-series, is that yesterday
I =
didn't
know anything about time-series and the example that I look at was=20
about 'station' time series. Today, at least, I know that exist
oth=
er=20
types, like continuous or signal time series. 

AND

(faculty); and $295 (practitioner). This course will be popular so
please d=
o
not wait if you are interested. If you sign up now and your plans
change, w=
e

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Mike

Re: Message formats on list (snips from SPSSX-L Digest - 8 Nov 2010 to 9 Nov 2010 (#2010-315))

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allan Reese (Cefas)" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:17 AM
Subject: Message formats on list (snips from SPSSX-L Digest - 8 Nov 2010 to 9 Nov 2010 (#2010-315))

> I'm finding the list digest increasingly hard to read because messages
> appear to be source code (for HTML or other) or non-alphanumeric codes
> have been expressed as character sequences.

This is a long standing problem that appears on a variety of
mailing lists (e.g., the SEMNET list) but persist for a variety of
reasons. I comment below:

> Are the problems more readily solved by:
> 1) senders remembering to send only plain text

This is perhaps the simplest solution but individuals are reluctant to
send plain text. Historically, email and other services were pure
text based. The development of graphically oriented mail clients
which allows one to use HTML formatted email (you know, use
of different types of stationary, having pictures of flowers or baby
animals in the background, etc.) especially by newbies who don't
know the different between plain text or HTML or other formats
have resulted in some truly ugly looking messages (only the most
intrepid would try to figure out the text in such situations).

Opponents of "pure text" emails have pointed out that a person
can do some things to avoid this (e.g., switch your mail client to
using HTML). On SPSSX-L, where people might include
output in non-text format, there is a somewhat stronger argument
for using HTML though this raise the question of why plain text
output from SPSS is not consistently provided (long timers
will remember the great "output shift" circa version 6-7 where
output was no longer plain text and instead were in a format
that was just a pain in the ass or impossible to edit).

So, simplest solution is for everyone to use plain text (hell, there
may still be readers who read SPSSX-L with ancient line oriented
Unix or other mail programs). Plain text takes up less space, is
easiet to edit, and faster to transmit. But the problem is convincing
another person to do so, especially persons whose attitude is
"it's your damn problem not mine, deal with it".

> 2) the list-server being enhanced to recognise other formats

It is my understanding that Listserv (tm) software, a proprietary
mailing list software package, can be set up so that if a person
wanted only plain text messages, it can do it (in Unix and other
systems there are programs that can take an HTML file and
strip out the HTML code, leaving only the text). When I pointed
this out on another list, I was told there was a problem with a
listserv software which they were unable to fix and one would have
to live with it. So, having a knowledgable and skilled listmaster might
solve the problem but where can one find a good, skilled listmaster
who cares about such issues today?

> 3) switching some option that I don't know exists in Outlook

Presumably this could be done by having email messages passed
through a filter that strips out the HTML code but, let's face it,
Outlook is a Microsoft product and those folks think that the
choice of stationary or having pictures of bunnies or kittens or
puppies in your email is a BENEFIT -- nevermind that this make
your email message file larger and slower to send. Perhaps a
Outlook guru can provide more info and/or someone knows of
a mail client that handles this problems seamlessly.

> 4) screaming insults at Microsoft who seem behind all corporate
> blindness on standards and inter-operability?

Remember the old Lily Tomlin skit on Saturday Night Live where
she played a phone operator and said "Sir, we're the phone company,
we don't have to care." Or something like that.

> I've added three arbitrary examples below, but have no idea what you
> will see when they arrive.
> Allan

Below you have HTML coded text with the "hidden" HTML mark-up
code visible -- typically happens when a mail client or an editor edits
only text.

> From: Mark Webb <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Fwd: Confusion with Linear Mixed Models - Repeated Measures
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
> charset=ISO-8859-1">
> </head>
> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
> 
> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
> charset=ISO-8859-1">
>
> AND

I believe that this is not so much an HTML problem but use
of appropriate character code. Most HTML has been stripped
out but not all of the code is removed (I don't know why)

> --20cf3054a0395c589804949c7255
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Sorry, the quote is a problem with Spanish language, we use the
> ','=
> instead of the '.' for decimal position. 
>
> 
>
> It's not that i don't want to use Time-series, is that yesterday
> I =
> didn't
> know anything about time-series and the example that I look at was=20
> about 'station' time series. Today, at least, I know that exist
> oth=
> er=20
> types, like continuous or signal time series. 
>
> AND

Again, I think this is less of an HTML problem then a mismatch in
character coding between sender and recipient and/or formatting
commands.

> (faculty); and $295 (practitioner). This course will be popular so
> please d=
> o
> not wait if you are interested. If you sign up now and your plans
> change, w=
> e

I'm open to correction on the points I've made above but the main point
is that this type of problem should have been solved long ago.

-Mike Palij
New York University
[hidden email]

=====================
To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
[hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
command. To leave the list, send the command
SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
INFO REFCARD

Art Kendall

Re: Message formats on list (snips from SPSSX-L Digest - 8 Nov 2010 to 9 Nov 2010 (#2010-315))

In reply to this post by Allan Reese (Cefas)

I never got into using Outlook because years ago it was not allowed on
secure systems. However, I doubt that it is unable to handle MIME or HTML.
I'll send a message to you directly that has variations on formatting.

UGA is running version 1.9 from 1996. (they say they have 2000 lists so
it seems odd that they are using such an old version!)
other sites e.g., lists.apa.org are running version 16.

try this
send a message to [hidden email]
saying in the body
query spssx-l

if it says NOMIME or NOHTML
send a message to [hidden email]
saying in the body
set spssx-l MIME
set spssx-l HTML

I'll send message the other message with some variations in formatting
that I sent to you to the list in a few minutes.

P.S. I do not use the "digest" but I filter all messages from this list
to a different folder that way I have them threaded. I would be
surprised if Outlook did not have filters that allow placing mail into
folders and threading.

Art Kendall
Social Research Consultants
On 11/10/2010 5:17 AM, Allan Reese (Cefas) wrote:

> I'm finding the list digest increasingly hard to read because messages
> appear to be source code (for HTML or other) or non-alphanumeric codes
> have been expressed as character sequences.
>
> Are the problems more readily solved by:
> 1) senders remembering to send only plain text
> 2) the list-server being enhanced to recognise other formats
> 3) switching some option that I don't know exists in Outlook
> 4) screaming insults at Microsoft who seem behind all corporate
> blindness on standards and inter-operability?
>
> I've added three arbitrary examples below, but have no idea what you
> will see when they arrive.
> Allan
>
>
> From: Mark Webb<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Fwd: Confusion with Linear Mixed Models - Repeated Measures
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> <html>
> <head>
> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
> charset=ISO-8859-1">
> </head>
> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
> 
> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
> charset=ISO-8859-1">
>
> AND
>
> --20cf3054a0395c589804949c7255
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Sorry, the quote is a problem with Spanish language, we use the
> ','=
> instead of the'.' for decimal position. 
>
> 
>
> It's not that i don't want to use Time-series, is that yesterday
> I =
> didn't
> know anything about time-series and the example that I look at was=20
> about'station' time series. Today, at least, I know that exist
> oth=
> er=20
> types, like continuous or signal time series. 
>
> AND
>
> (faculty); and $295 (practitioner). This course will be popular so
> please d=
> o
> not wait if you are interested. If you sign up now and your plans
> change, w=
> e
>
>
> ***********************************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are intended for the named recipient only. Its unauthorised use, distribution, disclosure, storage or copying is not permitted. If you have received it in error, please destroy all copies and notify the sender. In messages of a non-business nature, the views and opinions expressed are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect those of the organisation from which it is sent. All emails may be subject to monitoring.
> ***********************************************************************************
>
> =====================
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
> [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
> command. To leave the list, send the command
> SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
> For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
> INFO REFCARD
>

=====================
To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
[hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
command. To leave the list, send the command
SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
INFO REFCARD

Art Kendall
Social Research Consultants