SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?

[Justin Meyer-3]

Hi SPSS Listers,

 

I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use.  I am
considering:

 

-SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0

-Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6

 

Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
(but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
Picking the better software is more important than price.

 

Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.

 

____________________________________

Justin Meyer

Researcher

Rowland Reading Foundation

1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324

Madison, WI  53703

phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]

www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>

____________________________________

 

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[Russel Wildeman]

Like you, I will always just be learning but a few points

For me it is critical that the package chosen is well supported (web
assistance and clear manuals). It is also important that the package
"institutionalises" best statistical practice in the research community
meaning that the techniques used by the front runners in the field are
available to both novice and experts alike. Thirdly, you need to decide
whether you want a stand-alone specialist package or a more general
package like SPSS or STATA. The latter packages offer far more than the
specialised packages but are not that advanced (for your core business)
and so there is a trade-off to be made and you need to decide that.

I went through all these painful decisions two/three years ago and decided
to buy MlWin, the specialist multi-level package. It fulfills all my
criteria, even though it does not give you the diverse tools so typical of
the general packages. But what one can do in Mlwin is much better  than
the main general packages. And when some of the leading lights in the
field use it, it also becomes easier to use/repeat their techniques

So, not much help but good luck-there is no perfect package and software
solutions. While I like Mlwin, I am already aware of its limitations, but
that's not important here.

All the best,
Russell

------------------------------------------------

Hi SPSS Listers,

>
>
>
> I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
> Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
> company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
> on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use.  I am
> considering:
>
>
>
> -SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0
>
> -Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6
>
>
>
> Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
> tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
> and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
> (but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
> be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
> Picking the better software is more important than price.
>
>
>
> Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
> appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________
>
> Justin Meyer
>
> Researcher
>
> Rowland Reading Foundation
>
> 1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324
>
> Madison, WI  53703
>
> phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]
>
> www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>
>
> ____________________________________
>
>
>
> ====================To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message
> to
> [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
> command. To leave the list, send the command
> SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
> For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
> INFO REFCARD
>

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[Burleson,Joseph A.]

Justin:

While I am a diehard user of SPSS for 40 years, I would say that the HLM has major advantages, and is bullet-proof in the integrity of its' algorithms. Don Hedekor's program is also excellent. The Singer and Willet text on longitudinal modeling using HLM notes these two, plus anohter popular one from UK (sorry not to have the software names right at hand). Finally, SAS is always on the cutting edge of HLM, but can be difficult to use, easier for more technically inclined folks.

SPSS's MIXED procedure has undergone various improvements, starting with correcting real errors a few versions ago. It's syntax is "SAS-like" and so a SAS user can see that SPSS just stole the syntax style.

One of my troubles with SPSS is that the documentation of what you need and how to get it is very skimpy, the syntax, while simple, is not intuitive, and the documentation on line is slim.

Marisa Nurissis's SPSS book on advanced modules has a nice, but short, chapter on MIXED procedures. She is an excellent writter, I just with she had been contracted to write a book ala Singer and Willett (which is masterfully written), on all the aspects of HLM.

Finally, Raudenbush and Bryk's 2nd edition book of HLM is a pithy and highly technical text that accompanies the HLM program, but their elaborations are nil, and they are extremely succinct, assuming a very technical background, one more familiar to biostaticians and programmers.

So, I would get HLM and suffer the learning curve. SPSS is very expensive, too, if all you want is MIXED option. I use SPSS, HLM, and SAS in efforts to get the best of each.

Joe Burleson
Joe B.

________________________________

From: SPSSX(r) Discussion on behalf of Justin Meyer
Sent: Fri 5/23/2008 11:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?



Hi SPSS Listers,



I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use.  I am
considering:



-SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0

-Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6



Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
(but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
Picking the better software is more important than price.



Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.



____________________________________

Justin Meyer

Researcher

Rowland Reading Foundation

1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324

Madison, WI  53703

phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]

www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>

____________________________________



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[Swank, Paul R]

MLWin is the software I believe you mean from the UK.

Paul R. Swank, Ph.D.
Professor and Director of Research
Children's Learning Institute
University of Texas Health Science Center - Houston


-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Burleson,Joseph A.
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:06 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?

Justin:

While I am a diehard user of SPSS for 40 years, I would say that the HLM
has major advantages, and is bullet-proof in the integrity of its'
algorithms. Don Hedekor's program is also excellent. The Singer and
Willet text on longitudinal modeling using HLM notes these two, plus
anohter popular one from UK (sorry not to have the software names right
at hand). Finally, SAS is always on the cutting edge of HLM, but can be
difficult to use, easier for more technically inclined folks.

SPSS's MIXED procedure has undergone various improvements, starting with
correcting real errors a few versions ago. It's syntax is "SAS-like" and
so a SAS user can see that SPSS just stole the syntax style.

One of my troubles with SPSS is that the documentation of what you need
and how to get it is very skimpy, the syntax, while simple, is not
intuitive, and the documentation on line is slim.

Marisa Nurissis's SPSS book on advanced modules has a nice, but short,
chapter on MIXED procedures. She is an excellent writter, I just with
she had been contracted to write a book ala Singer and Willett (which is
masterfully written), on all the aspects of HLM.

Finally, Raudenbush and Bryk's 2nd edition book of HLM is a pithy and
highly technical text that accompanies the HLM program, but their
elaborations are nil, and they are extremely succinct, assuming a very
technical background, one more familiar to biostaticians and
programmers.

So, I would get HLM and suffer the learning curve. SPSS is very
expensive, too, if all you want is MIXED option. I use SPSS, HLM, and
SAS in efforts to get the best of each.

Joe Burleson
Joe B.

________________________________

From: SPSSX(r) Discussion on behalf of Justin Meyer
Sent: Fri 5/23/2008 11:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?



Hi SPSS Listers,



I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use.  I am
considering:



-SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0

-Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6



Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
(but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
Picking the better software is more important than price.



Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.



____________________________________

Justin Meyer

Researcher

Rowland Reading Foundation

1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324

Madison, WI  53703

phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]

www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>

____________________________________



=======
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[Dale Glaser]

.and if SPSS is to be used Bickel, R. (2007) Multilevel Analysis for applied research is a gentle intro with lots of SPSS examples...

  that being said, I have a presentation where I have compared the same model in SPSS, HLM6.0, and Mplus and for the most part I get the same parameter estimates and variance components across softwares except SPSS computes (regardless if I use REML or FIML) a markedly different variance component for the slope (but not the intercept)...................SPSS was going to get back to me about that but I hadn't heard word yet...(this was almost a year ago)....I tested this last with SPSS v 15.0.1 so maybe it has been rectified with v. 16.0, but I am very wary of using SPSS for mixed linear models......

  dale

"Burleson,Joseph A." <[hidden email]> wrote:
  Justin:

While I am a diehard user of SPSS for 40 years, I would say that the HLM has major advantages, and is bullet-proof in the integrity of its' algorithms. Don Hedekor's program is also excellent. The Singer and Willet text on longitudinal modeling using HLM notes these two, plus anohter popular one from UK (sorry not to have the software names right at hand). Finally, SAS is always on the cutting edge of HLM, but can be difficult to use, easier for more technically inclined folks.

SPSS's MIXED procedure has undergone various improvements, starting with correcting real errors a few versions ago. It's syntax is "SAS-like" and so a SAS user can see that SPSS just stole the syntax style.

One of my troubles with SPSS is that the documentation of what you need and how to get it is very skimpy, the syntax, while simple, is not intuitive, and the documentation on line is slim.

Marisa Nurissis's SPSS book on advanced modules has a nice, but short, chapter on MIXED procedures. She is an excellent writter, I just with she had been contracted to write a book ala Singer and Willett (which is masterfully written), on all the aspects of HLM.

Finally, Raudenbush and Bryk's 2nd edition book of HLM is a pithy and highly technical text that accompanies the HLM program, but their elaborations are nil, and they are extremely succinct, assuming a very technical background, one more familiar to biostaticians and programmers.

So, I would get HLM and suffer the learning curve. SPSS is very expensive, too, if all you want is MIXED option. I use SPSS, HLM, and SAS in efforts to get the best of each.

Joe Burleson
Joe B.

________________________________

From: SPSSX(r) Discussion on behalf of Justin Meyer
Sent: Fri 5/23/2008 11:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?



Hi SPSS Listers,



I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use. I am
considering:



-SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0

-Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6



Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
(but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
Picking the better software is more important than price.



Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.



____________________________________

Justin Meyer

Researcher

Rowland Reading Foundation

1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324

Madison, WI 53703

phone: [phone] fax: [phone]

www.rowlandreading.org

____________________________________



=======
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Dale Glaser, Ph.D.
Principal--Glaser Consulting
Lecturer/Adjunct Faculty--SDSU/USD/AIU
President, San Diego Chapter of
American Statistical Association
3115 4th Avenue
San Diego, CA 92103
phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]
email: [hidden email]
website: www.glaserconsult.com

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[Melike Findikoglu]

Hi Justin,
We have used HLM in multilevel analysis course. I am a SPSS user but my
experience with MIXED models limited. I strongly recommend HLM, it is easy
to learn, the manual is pretty straight-forward. We have used that software
for growth models, Rasch-models, with two and three levels. If you would
like have an idea, you can download a free student version (the number
variables are limited) at SSI webpage (
http://www.ssicentral.com/hlm/student.html)

The only thing it cannot handle is the Bayesian approach which I believe is
not supported by SPSS as well. For that, you need R, but this is a whole
different story and I think HLM will cover most of your requirements.

Best,

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Justin Meyer <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi SPSS Listers,
>
>
>
> I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
> Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
> company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
> on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use.  I am
> considering:
>
>
>
> -SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0
>
> -Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6
>
>
>
> Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
> tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
> and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
> (but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
> be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
> Picking the better software is more important than price.
>
>
>
> Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
> appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________
>
> Justin Meyer
>
> Researcher
>
> Rowland Reading Foundation
>
> 1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324
>
> Madison, WI  53703
>
> phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]
>
> www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>
>
> ____________________________________
>
>
>
> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
> [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
> command. To leave the list, send the command
> SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
> For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
> INFO REFCARD
>

=====================
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[Gary Oliver]

Hi Justin

I agree with Melike, the manual is worth reading. I also found another
book which was quite helpful although it did not instance HLM software:
Twisk, J W R (2006) Applied multilevel analysis. Sage
This provided many ideas which helped clear my thinking and helped
justify it over ANOVA and other "expected" techniques that reviewers
presume should be used.

HLM software could have better data prep/set-up features (and
instructions) but the actual process and output seem reliable and the
programmer always responds to requests and suggestions.

Warm regards/gary

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>On Behalf Of Melike Findikoglu
>>Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 12:51 PM
>>To: [hidden email]
>>Subject: Re: SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?
>>
>>Hi Justin,
>>We have used HLM in multilevel analysis course. I am a SPSS
>>user but my experience with MIXED models limited. I strongly
>>recommend HLM, it is easy to learn, the manual is pretty
>>straight-forward. We have used that software for growth
>>models, Rasch-models, with two and three levels. If you would
>>like have an idea, you can download a free student version
>>(the number variables are limited) at SSI webpage (
>>http://www.ssicentral.com/hlm/student.html)
>>
>>The only thing it cannot handle is the Bayesian approach
>>which I believe is not supported by SPSS as well. For that,
>>you need R, but this is a whole different story and I think
>>HLM will cover most of your requirements.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Justin Meyer <
>>[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi SPSS Listers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical
>>> Linear Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student
>>standardized test
>>> data. The company I work for wants to buy a software
>>package for me to
>>> use based on my recommendation. This would be for
>>occasional use.  I
>>> am
>>> considering:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0
>>>
>>> -Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear
>>Modeling (HLM)
>>> 6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can
>>> anyone tell me about their experiences with either of
>>these? What are
>>> the pros and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the
>>> company use HLM 6 (but they would not be helping me) so that is a
>>> consideration. I won't be replacing the work that they do,
>>just doing some additional analysis.
>>> Picking the better software is more important than price.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
>>> appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________
>>>
>>> Justin Meyer
>>>
>>> Researcher
>>>
>>> Rowland Reading Foundation
>>>
>>> 1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324
>>>
>>> Madison, WI  53703
>>>
>>> phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]
>>>
>>> www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>> [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body
>>text except
>>> the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF
>>SPSSX-L For a
>>> list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO
>>> REFCARD
>>>
>>
>>=====================
>>To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>[hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text
>>except the command. To leave the list, send the command
>>SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage
>>subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
>>

=====================
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[Paul Ginns-2]

Hi Justin,

You may also want to consider MlWin, a major player in this area. See http://www.cmm.bris.ac.uk/MLwiN/download/index.shtml - something I've just discovered is that they have a free (registration required) online course on multilevel modelling, LEMMA, http://www.cmm.bristol.ac.uk/learning-training/course.shtml#pay

Cheers,

Paul

Dr. Paul Ginns
Lecturer in Educational Psychology
Faculty of Education and Social Work
A35 - Education Building
The University of Sydney
NSW 2006 Australia

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
E-Mail: [hidden email]

>>
>>On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Justin Meyer <
>>[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi SPSS Listers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical
>>> Linear Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student
>>standardized test
>>> data. The company I work for wants to buy a software
>>package for me to
>>> use based on my recommendation. This would be for
>>occasional use.  I
>>> am
>>> considering:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0
>>>
>>> -Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear
>>Modeling (HLM)
>>> 6
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can
>>> anyone tell me about their experiences with either of
>>these? What are
>>> the pros and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the
>>> company use HLM 6 (but they would not be helping me) so that is a
>>> consideration. I won't be replacing the work that they do,
>>just doing some additional analysis.
>>> Picking the better software is more important than price.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
>>> appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.

=====================
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[statisticsdoc]

Justin,

The SSI HLM package can handle many problems that are outside the scope of
SPSS Mixed Models.  If you are dealing with test data that is scored in a
binary manner (e.g., pass/fail), or an ordinal scale (e.g., rurbric scores),
then you will need to use a package that can apply HLM to dichotomous and to
ordinal dependent variables.  The procedures you need to employ in HLM for
these types of scores are not the same as the ones that you would employ for
test scores that are continuous in nature.  The SSI HLM 6 package is well
suited to the analysis of binary and ordinal data, and these applications
are discussed by the Raudenbush and Bryk (2003) book that is sold with the
package.

Having said that, the SPSS Base Module is a great help when you need to
construct the data files that are needed for the HLM analyses.

Best,

Steve

For personalized assistance in research design and statistics, visit
www.StatisticsDoc.com


-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of
Justin Meyer
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 11:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0 vs. HLM 6?

Hi SPSS Listers,



I am at the very beginning stages of learning to use Hierarchical Linear
Modeling (HLM) techniques to analyze student standardized test data. The
company I work for wants to buy a software package for me to use based
on my recommendation. This would be for occasional use.  I am
considering:



-SPSS Advanced Models for V15.0

-Scientific Software International Hierarchical Linear Modeling (HLM) 6



Am I missing any other software that I should be considering? Can anyone
tell me about their experiences with either of these? What are the pros
and cons of each? Consultants that do analysis for the company use HLM 6
(but they would not be helping me) so that is a consideration. I won't
be replacing the work that they do, just doing some additional analysis.
Picking the better software is more important than price.



Thank you for any information you can provide. If this is not an
appropriate venue for this question, I apologize in advance.



____________________________________

Justin Meyer

Researcher

Rowland Reading Foundation

1 South Pinckney Street, Suite 324

Madison, WI  53703

phone: [phone]  fax: [phone]

www.rowlandreading.org <http://www.rowlandreading.org/>

____________________________________



=======
To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
[hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
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[Edgar F. Johns]

What about MPlus? Does MPlus offer a comprehensive package for HLM/MLM?
Also, what about the other SEM packages - like Lisrel and EQS?

Anyone familiar with these packages and multilevel modeling?

Edgar
---
Discover Technologies
2906 River Meadow Circle.
Canton, MI 48188
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[Dale Glaser]

Edgar, though for straightforward univariate models I generally use HLM6.0, I do use Mplus for all my latent variable analysis with clustered/nested samples (i.e, multilevel structural equation modeling), use of sampling weights,  as well as for growth curve modeling..................moreover, Mplus has a wonderful discussion board that the Muthen's monitor frequently that is of much assistance for purposes of syntax construction or interpretation of output.......

  I haven't used the MLM interface in LISREL for a few years...I experimented with it when it first came out, but unless it has changed I think it was fairly limited (for instance, I can't recall if you could have logistic/probit type of models in LISREL for MLModels).............and EQS does have a MLM option, but I haven't used it for such.......

  dale

"Edgar F. Johns" <[hidden email]> wrote:
  What about MPlus? Does MPlus offer a comprehensive package for HLM/MLM?
Also, what about the other SEM packages - like Lisrel and EQS?

Anyone familiar with these packages and multilevel modeling?

Edgar
---
Discover Technologies
2906 River Meadow Circle.
Canton, MI 48188
[phone]
[phone] fax
-----Original Message-----

{Trimmed}

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Dale Glaser, Ph.D.
Principal--Glaser Consulting
Lecturer/Adjunct Faculty--SDSU/USD/AIU
President, San Diego Chapter of
American Statistical Association
3115 4th Avenue
San Diego, CA 92103
phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]
email: [hidden email]
website: www.glaserconsult.com

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