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Re: SPSSX-L Digest - 14 Nov 2019 to 15 Nov 2019 (#2019-237)

Posted by Stan Gorodenski on Nov 16, 2019; 5:25pm
URL: http://spssx-discussion.165.s1.nabble.com/Roots-tp5738554p5738567.html

This is very interesting. In the SAS discussion group one of the members
who responded gave me a link
https://communities.sas.com/t5/SAS-Procedures/Does-SAS-have-a-function-to-calculate-1-1-3/td-p/42349
where this was discussed. In the link it says SAS cannot do this, yet
you were able to. How did this happen? I notice you do not have
parenthesis around -1. Is this why it worked?
Stan

On 11/16/2019 7:15 AM, Eugene Komaroff wrote:

> SAS returned the correct answer:
> x = -1**(1/3) = -1;
>
> Eugene
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:00 AM SPSSX-L automatic digest system
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     There are 7 messages totaling 551 lines in this issue.
>
>     Topics of the day:
>
>       1. Roots (6)
>       2. Map conversion utility problems
>
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>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 12:12:20 +0300
>     From:    Kirill Orlov <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>
>
>     15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>     > compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>
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>     ------------------------------
>
>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:27:29 -0700
>     From:    ChrisKeran <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Map conversion utility problems
>
>     I'm trying to use the Map Conversion Utility, however it seems to
>     take 10
>     minutes to refresh.
>     Also, when I select the "Delete individual elements" task, it
>     doesn't show
>     the list of elements to delete, and doesn't seem to allow me to
>     select the
>     element on the map preview. Thoughts?
>
>
>
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>     Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
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>     ------------------------------
>
>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:36:17 -0700
>     From:    Stan Gorodenski <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     Thanks. I did not know this paragraph existed. However, all it did
>     was
>     tell me that SPSS cannot carry out the compute, which I already knew,
>     but not why. All the domain errors they list, I believe, except
>     (-1)**(1/3) and a number too large to be represented in the computer,
>     are not mathematically defined and so I would not expect SPSS to
>     be able
>     to carry out a calculation. However, (-1)**(1/3) is mathematically
>     defined. I tried this on my HP 35s hand calculator and it came up
>     with
>     an error. This did not seem unreasonable because this is an
>     inexpensive
>     calculating machine. I then went to SPSS, a more advanced
>     software, and
>     discovered SPSS cannot do it either. Does anyone know why? Is it not
>     possible with the language upon which SPSS is based? I wonder if
>     SAS can
>     do it. Does anyone know?
>     Stan
>
>     On 11/15/2019 2:12 AM, Kirill Orlov wrote:
>     > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>     >
>     >
>     > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>     >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
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>     ------------------------------
>
>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:35:01 -0700
>     From:    Bruce Weaver <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLVMB_26.0.0/statistics_reference_project_ddita/spss/base/syn_transformation_expressions_domain_errors.html
>
>
>
>     Kirill Orlov wrote
>     > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>     >
>     >
>     > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>     >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>     >
>     > =====================
>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>
>     > LISTSERV@.UGA
>
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>
>
>
>
>     -----
>     --
>     Bruce Weaver
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
>
>     "When all else fails, RTFM."
>
>     NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
>     To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.
>
>     --
>     Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>
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>     ------------------------------
>
>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:05:05 +0000
>     From:    Rich Ulrich <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     I wonder - Is there any demand for the exception-coding
>     that would be necessary?  How many people write code
>     where they want to take the fractional root of a negative
>     number, where the fraction is the reciprocal of an odd integer?
>     ( Note, the fraction cannot be expressed EXACTLY on a binary
>     computer. How is that accommodated?)
>
>     The natural programming solution to non-integer roots is
>     to use logs.  I suppose if there is an area where the problem
>     comes up, specialized programs for that area might do it.
>     I suspect the efficient solution might use a special subroutine
>     call rather than an in-line expression.
>
>     --
>     Rich Ulrich
>
>     ________________________________
>     From: SPSSX(r) Discussion <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of Bruce Weaver
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:35 AM
>     To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLVMB_26.0.0/statistics_reference_project_ddita/spss/base/syn_transformation_expressions_domain_errors.html
>
>
>
>     Kirill Orlov wrote
>     > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>     >
>     >
>     > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>     >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>     >
>     > =====================
>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>
>     > LISTSERV@.UGA
>
>     >  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>     > command. To leave the list, send the command
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>     > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>     > INFO REFCARD
>
>
>
>
>
>     -----
>     --
>     Bruce Weaver
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
>
>     "When all else fails, RTFM."
>
>     NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
>     To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.
>
>     --
>     Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>
>     =====================
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>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 12:15:09 -0500
>     From:    David Greenberg <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     I tried it in Stata. the  command display (-.3333)^(1/3) produces an
>     error message. Removing the second set of parentheses yields -.3333.
>     David Greenberg, NYU Sociology Dept.
>
>     On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 10:37 AM Stan Gorodenski
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     >
>     > Thanks. I did not know this paragraph existed. However, all it
>     did was
>     > tell me that SPSS cannot carry out the compute, which I already
>     knew,
>     > but not why. All the domain errors they list, I believe, except
>     > (-1)**(1/3) and a number too large to be represented in the
>     computer,
>     > are not mathematically defined and so I would not expect SPSS to
>     be able
>     > to carry out a calculation. However, (-1)**(1/3) is mathematically
>     > defined. I tried this on my HP 35s hand calculator and it came
>     up with
>     > an error. This did not seem unreasonable because this is an
>     inexpensive
>     > calculating machine. I then went to SPSS, a more advanced
>     software, and
>     > discovered SPSS cannot do it either. Does anyone know why? Is it not
>     > possible with the language upon which SPSS is based? I wonder if
>     SAS can
>     > do it. Does anyone know?
>     > Stan
>     >
>     > On 11/15/2019 2:12 AM, Kirill Orlov wrote:
>     > > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>     > >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>     > >
>     > >
>     > >
>     > >
>     >
>     > =====================
>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>     > command. To leave the list, send the command
>     > SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
>     > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>     > INFO REFCARD
>
>     =====================
>     To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> (not
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>     command. To leave the list, send the command
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>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:26:33 -0700
>     From:    Stan Gorodenski <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Subject: Re: Roots
>
>     I don't know if there is any demand, but I think the square root
>     of -1
>     is used in electronics. I'm not into this so I really don't know.
>     I did
>     not pose this question because I have an application for it. I was
>     just
>     curious since it seems that sophisticated software packages like SPSS
>     and SAS should be able to do it. I just sent an email to join the SAS
>     discussion group and will ask them if SAS can do it. I suppose one
>     could
>     write a routine to return a -1 if the the denominator of the
>     exponent is
>     an odd number.
>     Stan
>
>     On 11/15/2019 10:05 AM, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>     > I wonder - Is there any demand for the exception-coding
>     > that would be necessary?  How many people write code
>     > where they want to take the fractional root of a negative
>     > number, where the fraction is the reciprocal of an odd integer?
>     > ( Note, the fraction cannot be expressed EXACTLY on a binary
>     > computer. How is that accommodated?)
>     >
>     > The natural programming solution to non-integer roots is
>     > to use logs.  I suppose if there is an area where the problem
>     > comes up, specialized programs for that area might do it.
>     > I suspect the efficient solution might use a special subroutine
>     > call rather than an in-line expression.
>     >
>     > --
>     > Rich Ulrich
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > *From:* SPSSX(r) Discussion <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of
>     > Bruce Weaver <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     > *Sent:* Friday, November 15, 2019 11:35 AM
>     > *To:* [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     > *Subject:* Re: Roots
>     >
>     https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLVMB_26.0.0/statistics_reference_project_ddita/spss/base/syn_transformation_expressions_domain_errors.html
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > Kirill Orlov wrote
>     > > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>     > >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>     > >
>     > > =====================
>     > > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>     >
>     > > LISTSERV@.UGA
>     >
>     > >  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>     > > command. To leave the list, send the command
>     > > SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
>     > > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>     > > INFO REFCARD
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > -----
>     > --
>     > Bruce Weaver
>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     > http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
>     >
>     > "When all else fails, RTFM."
>     >
>     > NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
>     > To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.
>     >
>     > --
>     > Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>     >
>     > =====================
>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>     ------------------------------
>
>     End of SPSSX-L Digest - 14 Nov 2019 to 15 Nov 2019 (#2019-237)
>     **************************************************************
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