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Re: SPSSX-L Digest - 14 Nov 2019 to 15 Nov 2019 (#2019-237)

Posted by Stan Gorodenski on Nov 16, 2019; 5:28pm
URL: http://spssx-discussion.165.s1.nabble.com/Roots-tp5738554p5738568.html

p.s., Maybe what is happening is the expression does not recognize the
minus sign. SPSS, and I am sure SAS, can compute (1)**(1/3). Maybe SAS
ignored the minus sign and then added it to the result, the number 1,
after it computed 1**(1/3)?. Just a guess. Could you try putting -1 in
parenthesis and see what happens?
Stan

On 11/16/2019 10:25 AM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

> This is very interesting. In the SAS discussion group one of the
> members who responded gave me a link
> https://communities.sas.com/t5/SAS-Procedures/Does-SAS-have-a-function-to-calculate-1-1-3/td-p/42349 
>
> where this was discussed. In the link it says SAS cannot do this, yet
> you were able to. How did this happen? I notice you do not have
> parenthesis around -1. Is this why it worked?
> Stan
>
> On 11/16/2019 7:15 AM, Eugene Komaroff wrote:
>> SAS returned the correct answer:
>> x = -1**(1/3) = -1;
>>
>> Eugene
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:00 AM SPSSX-L automatic digest system
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     There are 7 messages totaling 551 lines in this issue.
>>
>>     Topics of the day:
>>
>>       1. Roots (6)
>>       2. Map conversion utility problems
>>
>>     =====================
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>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 12:12:20 +0300
>>     From:    Kirill Orlov <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>>     See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>>
>>
>>     15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>>     > compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>>
>>     =====================
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>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:27:29 -0700
>>     From:    ChrisKeran <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Map conversion utility problems
>>
>>     I'm trying to use the Map Conversion Utility, however it seems to
>>     take 10
>>     minutes to refresh.
>>     Also, when I select the "Delete individual elements" task, it
>>     doesn't show
>>     the list of elements to delete, and doesn't seem to allow me to
>>     select the
>>     element on the map preview. Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>>     --
>>     Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>>
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>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:36:17 -0700
>>     From:    Stan Gorodenski <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>>     Thanks. I did not know this paragraph existed. However, all it did
>>     was
>>     tell me that SPSS cannot carry out the compute, which I already
>> knew,
>>     but not why. All the domain errors they list, I believe, except
>>     (-1)**(1/3) and a number too large to be represented in the
>> computer,
>>     are not mathematically defined and so I would not expect SPSS to
>>     be able
>>     to carry out a calculation. However, (-1)**(1/3) is mathematically
>>     defined. I tried this on my HP 35s hand calculator and it came up
>>     with
>>     an error. This did not seem unreasonable because this is an
>>     inexpensive
>>     calculating machine. I then went to SPSS, a more advanced
>>     software, and
>>     discovered SPSS cannot do it either. Does anyone know why? Is it not
>>     possible with the language upon which SPSS is based? I wonder if
>>     SAS can
>>     do it. Does anyone know?
>>     Stan
>>
>>     On 11/15/2019 2:12 AM, Kirill Orlov wrote:
>>     > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>>     >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>
>>     =====================
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>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:35:01 -0700
>>     From:    Bruce Weaver <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLVMB_26.0.0/statistics_reference_project_ddita/spss/base/syn_transformation_expressions_domain_errors.html
>>
>>
>>
>>     Kirill Orlov wrote
>>     > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>>     >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>>     >
>>     > =====================
>>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>
>>     > LISTSERV@.UGA
>>
>>     >  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>>     > command. To leave the list, send the command
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>>     > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>>     > INFO REFCARD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -----
>>     --
>>     Bruce Weaver
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
>>
>>     "When all else fails, RTFM."
>>
>>     NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
>>     To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.
>>
>>     --
>>     Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>>
>>     =====================
>>     To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> (not
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>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:05:05 +0000
>>     From:    Rich Ulrich <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>>     I wonder - Is there any demand for the exception-coding
>>     that would be necessary?  How many people write code
>>     where they want to take the fractional root of a negative
>>     number, where the fraction is the reciprocal of an odd integer?
>>     ( Note, the fraction cannot be expressed EXACTLY on a binary
>>     computer. How is that accommodated?)
>>
>>     The natural programming solution to non-integer roots is
>>     to use logs.  I suppose if there is an area where the problem
>>     comes up, specialized programs for that area might do it.
>>     I suspect the efficient solution might use a special subroutine
>>     call rather than an in-line expression.
>>
>>     --
>>     Rich Ulrich
>>
>>     ________________________________
>>     From: SPSSX(r) Discussion <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of Bruce Weaver
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:35 AM
>>     To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLVMB_26.0.0/statistics_reference_project_ddita/spss/base/syn_transformation_expressions_domain_errors.html
>>
>>
>>
>>     Kirill Orlov wrote
>>     > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>>     >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>>     >
>>     > =====================
>>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>
>>     > LISTSERV@.UGA
>>
>>     >  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>>     > command. To leave the list, send the command
>>     > SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
>>     > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>>     > INFO REFCARD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -----
>>     --
>>     Bruce Weaver
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
>>
>>     "When all else fails, RTFM."
>>
>>     NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
>>     To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.
>>
>>     --
>>     Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>>
>>     =====================
>>     To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> (not
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>>
>>     =====================
>>     To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> (not
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>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 12:15:09 -0500
>>     From:    David Greenberg <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>>     I tried it in Stata. the  command display (-.3333)^(1/3) produces an
>>     error message. Removing the second set of parentheses yields -.3333.
>>     David Greenberg, NYU Sociology Dept.
>>
>>     On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 10:37 AM Stan Gorodenski
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     > Thanks. I did not know this paragraph existed. However, all it
>>     did was
>>     > tell me that SPSS cannot carry out the compute, which I already
>>     knew,
>>     > but not why. All the domain errors they list, I believe, except
>>     > (-1)**(1/3) and a number too large to be represented in the
>>     computer,
>>     > are not mathematically defined and so I would not expect SPSS to
>>     be able
>>     > to carry out a calculation. However, (-1)**(1/3) is mathematically
>>     > defined. I tried this on my HP 35s hand calculator and it came
>>     up with
>>     > an error. This did not seem unreasonable because this is an
>>     inexpensive
>>     > calculating machine. I then went to SPSS, a more advanced
>>     software, and
>>     > discovered SPSS cannot do it either. Does anyone know why? Is
>> it not
>>     > possible with the language upon which SPSS is based? I wonder if
>>     SAS can
>>     > do it. Does anyone know?
>>     > Stan
>>     >
>>     > On 11/15/2019 2:12 AM, Kirill Orlov wrote:
>>     > > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>>     > >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     >
>>     > =====================
>>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>>     > command. To leave the list, send the command
>>     > SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
>>     > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>>     > INFO REFCARD
>>
>>     =====================
>>     To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> (not
>>     to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>>     command. To leave the list, send the command
>>     SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
>>     For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>>     INFO REFCARD
>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Date:    Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:26:33 -0700
>>     From:    Stan Gorodenski <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     Subject: Re: Roots
>>
>>     I don't know if there is any demand, but I think the square root
>>     of -1
>>     is used in electronics. I'm not into this so I really don't know.
>>     I did
>>     not pose this question because I have an application for it. I was
>>     just
>>     curious since it seems that sophisticated software packages like
>> SPSS
>>     and SAS should be able to do it. I just sent an email to join the
>> SAS
>>     discussion group and will ask them if SAS can do it. I suppose one
>>     could
>>     write a routine to return a -1 if the the denominator of the
>>     exponent is
>>     an odd number.
>>     Stan
>>
>>     On 11/15/2019 10:05 AM, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>>     > I wonder - Is there any demand for the exception-coding
>>     > that would be necessary?  How many people write code
>>     > where they want to take the fractional root of a negative
>>     > number, where the fraction is the reciprocal of an odd integer?
>>     > ( Note, the fraction cannot be expressed EXACTLY on a binary
>>     > computer. How is that accommodated?)
>>     >
>>     > The natural programming solution to non-integer roots is
>>     > to use logs.  I suppose if there is an area where the problem
>>     > comes up, specialized programs for that area might do it.
>>     > I suspect the efficient solution might use a special subroutine
>>     > call rather than an in-line expression.
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Rich Ulrich
>>     >
>>     >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > *From:* SPSSX(r) Discussion <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of
>>     > Bruce Weaver <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     > *Sent:* Friday, November 15, 2019 11:35 AM
>>     > *To:* [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>     > *Subject:* Re: Roots
>>     >
>> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLVMB_26.0.0/statistics_reference_project_ddita/spss/base/syn_transformation_expressions_domain_errors.html
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Kirill Orlov wrote
>>     > > See DOMAIN ERRORS paragraph in Command Syntax Reference.
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > > 15.11.2019 4:53, Stan Gorodenski пишет:
>>     > >> compute z = (-1)**(1/3).
>>     > >
>>     > > =====================
>>     > > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     >
>>     > > LISTSERV@.UGA
>>     >
>>     > >  (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
>>     > > command. To leave the list, send the command
>>     > > SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
>>     > > For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
>>     > > INFO REFCARD
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > -----
>>     > --
>>     > Bruce Weaver
>>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     > http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
>>     >
>>     > "When all else fails, RTFM."
>>     >
>>     > NOTE: My Hotmail account is not monitored regularly.
>>     > To send me an e-mail, please use the address shown above.
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Sent from: http://spssx-discussion.1045642.n5.nabble.com/
>>     >
>>     > =====================
>>     > To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
>>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>>     > ===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L,
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>>     > message to [hidden email]
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>>     > command INFO REFCARD
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>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     End of SPSSX-L Digest - 14 Nov 2019 to 15 Nov 2019 (#2019-237)
>> **************************************************************
>>
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>

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