Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

[Joseph Teitelman temp2]

I'm sure that you'd agree with me that it's patently obvious that the SPSS programming language hardly compares to SAS' SAS/IML module.  There's simply no such comparison.  SAS's matrix programming language is far superior to SPSS' matrix programming language.

And the question still remains: why do most statisticians choose SAS over SPSS?  You tell me why such is the case.  Have you been a statistics student in a graduate level program * or a mathematics student?

>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 12:37 PM >>>
First, let's correct the facts.  SPSS in fact does have a matrix language built in.  It has 18 statement types, 59 functions, and 20 operators.  Users on this list have posted extensive programs using it.

Second, using the programmability features of SPSS 14, you have access to a vast array of scientifically oriented modules from third parties.  For example, scipy and numpy can be downloaded free and used within SPSS.

Here is the summary description of scipy

SciPy is an open source library of scientific tools for Python. SciPy gathers a variety of high level science and engineering modules together as a single package. SciPy provides modules for statistics, optimization, integration, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, signal and image processing, genetic algorithms, ODE solvers, special functions, and more. SciPy requires and supplements NumPy, which provides a multidimensional array object and other basic functionality.

Here are a few random examples of simple things you can do with this library within BEGIN PROGRAM in SPSS.  Since you can read the SPSS cases and output in this mode, the inputs can be anything in SPSS.

factorial and combination functions:

import scipy
scipy.factorial(4)
 -> array(24.0)
int(scipy.factorial(4))
-> 24
scipy.factorial(4.1)
-> array(27.931753738368371)  (Gamma function)
scipy.factorial(50, exact=1)
 -> 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000L

matrix operations:
import scipy
A = scipy.mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
print A
-> matrix [[1 3 5]
 [2 5 1]
 [2 3 8]]
print A.I
-> matrix([[-1.48,  0.36,  0.88],
[ 0.56,  0.08, -0.36],
 [ 0.16, -0.12,  0.04]])
(A * A.I = identity matrix)
scipy.linalg.det(A)
-> -25


solving linear equations (nonlinear also available):
from scipy import *
A= mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
b = mat('[10;8;3]')
Solve linear equations Ax = b...
A.I*b
or
linalg.solve(A,b)

Regards,
Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSS file
[snip]

Next, Stat/IML is a matrix  programming language which comes along with SAS.  It is extremely powerful.  SPSS has no matrix programming language.  And from what I've been told, neither does Stata.
[>>>Peck, Jon] [snip]

Those were my impressions.

Joe Teitelman

[Peck, Jon]

As a matter of fact, I do not agree with you in the slightest when you consider the power of the open source modules that can be plugged in to SPSS via programmability and combined with the power and elegance of the Python language and the SPSS engine.  Maybe you should try it.

And as another matter of fact, I happen to have a Ph. D. in Economics (econometrics), and taught in a top-tier university in the Economics and Statistics departments for 13 years before joining SPSS.

I have no interest in badmouthing SAS or other competing products.  Each has strengths and weaknesses.  Instead, I try to learn what those are.

-Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Teitelman temp2 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [hidden email]; Peck, Jon
Subject: Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

I'm sure that you'd agree with me that it's patently obvious that the SPSS programming language hardly compares to SAS' SAS/IML module.  There's simply no such comparison.  SAS's matrix programming language is far superior to SPSS' matrix programming language.

And the question still remains: why do most statisticians choose SAS over SPSS?  You tell me why such is the case.  Have you been a statistics student in a graduate level program * or a mathematics student?

>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 12:37 PM >>>
First, let's correct the facts.  SPSS in fact does have a matrix language built in.  It has 18 statement types, 59 functions, and 20 operators.  Users on this list have posted extensive programs using it.

Second, using the programmability features of SPSS 14, you have access to a vast array of scientifically oriented modules from third parties.  For example, scipy and numpy can be downloaded free and used within SPSS.

Here is the summary description of scipy

SciPy is an open source library of scientific tools for Python. SciPy gathers a variety of high level science and engineering modules together as a single package. SciPy provides modules for statistics, optimization, integration, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, signal and image processing, genetic algorithms, ODE solvers, special functions, and more. SciPy requires and supplements NumPy, which provides a multidimensional array object and other basic functionality.

Here are a few random examples of simple things you can do with this library within BEGIN PROGRAM in SPSS.  Since you can read the SPSS cases and output in this mode, the inputs can be anything in SPSS.

factorial and combination functions:

import scipy
scipy.factorial(4)
 -> array(24.0)
int(scipy.factorial(4))
-> 24
scipy.factorial(4.1)
-> array(27.931753738368371)  (Gamma function)
scipy.factorial(50, exact=1)
 -> 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000L

matrix operations:
import scipy
A = scipy.mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
print A
-> matrix [[1 3 5]
 [2 5 1]
 [2 3 8]]
print A.I
-> matrix([[-1.48,  0.36,  0.88],
[ 0.56,  0.08, -0.36],
 [ 0.16, -0.12,  0.04]])
(A * A.I = identity matrix)
scipy.linalg.det(A)
-> -25


solving linear equations (nonlinear also available):
from scipy import *
A= mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
b = mat('[10;8;3]')
Solve linear equations Ax = b...
A.I*b
or
linalg.solve(A,b)

Regards,
Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSS file
[snip]

Next, Stat/IML is a matrix  programming language which comes along with SAS.  It is extremely powerful.  SPSS has no matrix programming language.  And from what I've been told, neither does Stata.
[>>>Peck, Jon] [snip]

Those were my impressions.

Joe Teitelman

[Joseph Teitelman temp2]

You still haven't answered my question as to why most statisticians perfer SAS to SPSS; or why it's become common knowledge that SAS outperforms SPSS in so many respects.  Have you read the pdf document at UCLA?  It was written in 2005 * hardly outdated.

Moreover, you stated that you received a Ph.D. in Economics, and then in parentheses placed the term econometrics.  I was unaware that
any universities award degrees specifically in econometrics.  Are you trying to say that you earned a degree in economics and specialized in econometrics.

By the way, from what University have you earned your Ph.D. and at what universities have you taught.  How were you able to join a statistics department as a tenure track faculty member with a degree in economics, despite your apparent expertise as an econometrician.

Personally, I received my Ph.Ds from Duke and UNC-CH.   Check out US  News and World Report.  You'll discover that with respect to my fields of study, each of these schools is consistently ranked among the best in my areas of study.


>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 1:55 PM >>>
As a matter of fact, I do not agree with you in the slightest when you consider the power of the open source modules that can be plugged in to SPSS via programmability and combined with the power and elegance of the Python language and the SPSS engine.  Maybe you should try it.

And as another matter of fact, I happen to have a Ph. D. in Economics (econometrics), and taught in a top-tier university in the Economics and Statistics departments for 13 years before joining SPSS.

I have no interest in badmouthing SAS or other competing products.  Each has strengths and weaknesses.  Instead, I try to learn what those are.

-Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Teitelman temp2 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [hidden email]; Peck, Jon
Subject: Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

I'm sure that you'd agree with me that it's patently obvious that the SPSS programming language hardly compares to SAS' SAS/IML module.  There's simply no such comparison.  SAS's matrix programming language is far superior to SPSS' matrix programming language.

And the question still remains: why do most statisticians choose SAS over SPSS?  You tell me why such is the case.  Have you been a statistics student in a graduate level program * or a mathematics student?

>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 12:37 PM >>>
First, let's correct the facts.  SPSS in fact does have a matrix language built in.  It has 18 statement types, 59 functions, and 20 operators.  Users on this list have posted extensive programs using it.

Second, using the programmability features of SPSS 14, you have access to a vast array of scientifically oriented modules from third parties.  For example, scipy and numpy can be downloaded free and used within SPSS.

Here is the summary description of scipy

SciPy is an open source library of scientific tools for Python. SciPy gathers a variety of high level science and engineering modules together as a single package. SciPy provides modules for statistics, optimization, integration, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, signal and image processing, genetic algorithms, ODE solvers, special functions, and more. SciPy requires and supplements NumPy, which provides a multidimensional array object and other basic functionality.

Here are a few random examples of simple things you can do with this library within BEGIN PROGRAM in SPSS.  Since you can read the SPSS cases and output in this mode, the inputs can be anything in SPSS.

factorial and combination functions:

import scipy
scipy.factorial(4)
 -> array(24.0)
int(scipy.factorial(4))
-> 24
scipy.factorial(4.1)
-> array(27.931753738368371)  (Gamma function)
scipy.factorial(50, exact=1)
 -> 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000L

matrix operations:
import scipy
A = scipy.mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
print A
-> matrix [[1 3 5]
 [2 5 1]
 [2 3 8]]
print A.I
-> matrix([[-1.48,  0.36,  0.88],
[ 0.56,  0.08, -0.36],
 [ 0.16, -0.12,  0.04]])
(A * A.I = identity matrix)
scipy.linalg.det(A)
-> -25


solving linear equations (nonlinear also available):
from scipy import *
A= mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
b = mat('[10;8;3]')
Solve linear equations Ax = b...
A.I*b
or
linalg.solve(A,b)

Regards,
Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSS file
[snip]

Next, Stat/IML is a matrix  programming language which comes along with SAS.  It is extremely powerful.  SPSS has no matrix programming language.  And from what I've been told, neither does Stata.
[>>>Peck, Jon] [snip]

Those were my impressions.

Joe Teitelman

[Dominic Lusinchi]

Dear Mr. Teitelman,

The purpose of this forum, the SPSS list, in my view, is to make positive
contributions to the use of SPSS, and assist subscribers in their use of
SPSS. If you cannot do that, or do not feel that SPSS is useful in your
daily work; I would suggest you unsubscribe from this list.

Congratulations on your educational achievements, but frankly, I could not
care less. I am not a subscriber to this list to obtain that kind of
information. Please do not crowd my email inbox with this sort of message.
Thank you.

Respectfully,
Dominic

Dominic Lusinchi
Statistician
Far West Research
Statistical Consulting
San Francisco, California
www.farwestresearch.com

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 11:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

You still haven't answered my question as to why most statisticians perfer
SAS to SPSS; or why it's become common knowledge that SAS outperforms SPSS
in so many respects.  Have you read the pdf document at UCLA?  It was
written in 2005 * hardly outdated.

Moreover, you stated that you received a Ph.D. in Economics, and then in
parentheses placed the term econometrics.  I was unaware that
any universities award degrees specifically in econometrics.  Are you trying
to say that you earned a degree in economics and specialized in
econometrics.

By the way, from what University have you earned your Ph.D. and at what
universities have you taught.  How were you able to join a statistics
department as a tenure track faculty member with a degree in economics,
despite your apparent expertise as an econometrician.

Personally, I received my Ph.Ds from Duke and UNC-CH.   Check out US  News
and World Report.  You'll discover that with respect to my fields of study,
each of these schools is consistently ranked among the best in my areas of
study.


>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 1:55 PM >>>
As a matter of fact, I do not agree with you in the slightest when you
consider the power of the open source modules that can be plugged in to SPSS
via programmability and combined with the power and elegance of the Python
language and the SPSS engine.  Maybe you should try it.

And as another matter of fact, I happen to have a Ph. D. in Economics
(econometrics), and taught in a top-tier university in the Economics and
Statistics departments for 13 years before joining SPSS.

I have no interest in badmouthing SAS or other competing products.  Each has
strengths and weaknesses.  Instead, I try to learn what those are.

-Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Teitelman temp2 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [hidden email]; Peck, Jon
Subject: Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

I'm sure that you'd agree with me that it's patently obvious that the SPSS
programming language hardly compares to SAS' SAS/IML module.  There's simply
no such comparison.  SAS's matrix programming language is far superior to
SPSS' matrix programming language.

And the question still remains: why do most statisticians choose SAS over
SPSS?  You tell me why such is the case.  Have you been a statistics student
in a graduate level program * or a mathematics student?

>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 12:37 PM >>>
First, let's correct the facts.  SPSS in fact does have a matrix language
built in.  It has 18 statement types, 59 functions, and 20 operators.  Users
on this list have posted extensive programs using it.

Second, using the programmability features of SPSS 14, you have access to a
vast array of scientifically oriented modules from third parties.  For
example, scipy and numpy can be downloaded free and used within SPSS.

Here is the summary description of scipy

SciPy is an open source library of scientific tools for Python. SciPy
gathers a variety of high level science and engineering modules together as
a single package. SciPy provides modules for statistics, optimization,
integration, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, signal and image
processing, genetic algorithms, ODE solvers, special functions, and more.
SciPy requires and supplements NumPy, which provides a multidimensional
array object and other basic functionality.

Here are a few random examples of simple things you can do with this library
within BEGIN PROGRAM in SPSS.  Since you can read the SPSS cases and output
in this mode, the inputs can be anything in SPSS.

factorial and combination functions:

import scipy
scipy.factorial(4)
 -> array(24.0)
int(scipy.factorial(4))
-> 24
scipy.factorial(4.1)
-> array(27.931753738368371)  (Gamma function)
scipy.factorial(50, exact=1)
 -> 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000L

matrix operations:
import scipy
A = scipy.mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
print A
-> matrix [[1 3 5]
 [2 5 1]
 [2 3 8]]
print A.I
-> matrix([[-1.48,  0.36,  0.88],
[ 0.56,  0.08, -0.36],
 [ 0.16, -0.12,  0.04]])
(A * A.I = identity matrix)
scipy.linalg.det(A)
-> -25


solving linear equations (nonlinear also available):
from scipy import *
A= mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
b = mat('[10;8;3]')
Solve linear equations Ax = b...
A.I*b
or
linalg.solve(A,b)

Regards,
Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSS
file
[snip]

Next, Stat/IML is a matrix  programming language which comes along with SAS.
It is extremely powerful.  SPSS has no matrix programming language.  And
from what I've been told, neither does Stata.
[>>>Peck, Jon] [snip]

Those were my impressions.

Joe Teitelman

[Peck, Jon]

Frankly, I'm done with this thread.  It’s a complete waste of time.  Sorry.

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

You still haven't answered my question as to why most statisticians perfer SAS to SPSS; or why it's become common knowledge that SAS outperforms SPSS in so many respects.  Have you read the pdf document at UCLA?  It was written in 2005 * hardly outdated.

Moreover, you stated that you received a Ph.D. in Economics, and then in parentheses placed the term econometrics.  I was unaware that
any universities award degrees specifically in econometrics.  Are you trying to say that you earned a degree in economics and specialized in econometrics.

By the way, from what University have you earned your Ph.D. and at what universities have you taught.  How were you able to join a statistics department as a tenure track faculty member with a degree in economics, despite your apparent expertise as an econometrician.

Personally, I received my Ph.Ds from Duke and UNC-CH.   Check out US  News and World Report.  You'll discover that with respect to my fields of study, each of these schools is consistently ranked among the best in my areas of study.

[Baker, Harley]

Dr. Teitelman,

While this exchange is entertaining in some respects, I find it pretty much useless. But, in the spirit of the exchange, I'd like to ask some questions. It will be interesting to read your responses. Before the questions, let me say I have used both products for over 20 years. That said, Dr. Teitelman, I have four questions for you:

1. What is the basis for your assertion that "most statisticians perfer [sic] SAS to SPSS"? [You might try spell check in the future.] I'd like to read the research you are citing for this. I will be eager to read the methods/results sections to see if the research is scientifically sound. I also will be eager to see how they assessed preferences.

2. So what if statisticians prefer one to the other? If I were to assert/cite studies showing that statisticians prefer death by electrocution over death by hanging (sorry for my reference here to an episode of Star Trek) does that imply that electrocution is really better than hanging? Put another way, some prefer chocolate to vanilla: is there any basis in their preferences to say that chocolate is actually better than vanilla? Clearly, a preference is not an objective statement about the object of the preference; it is a statements about the person holding the preference.

3. Those of us who study higher education tend to see the US News rankings as a sham, since these rankings do not really get at the quality of the education offered at an institution. For verification, ask your institutional research officers about this. So, the question is: so what if you came from schools/programs that US News rated highly and Jon Peck may not have done so? (I do not know where he did his work.) Remember, the Scare Crow at the end of the Wizard of Oz was made no smarter by his 'degree': his  recitation of the Pythagorean Theorem was incorrect.

4. So the UCLA document was written in 2005. How recent is the research it cites?

In the end, who cares . . . .

So, in the spirit of Dominic Lusinchi's and Jon Peck's last post, please feel free to respond to me personally at my email address. I look forward to the evidence, if any exists, upon which you make your silly claims.

Harley


Dr. Harley Baker
Associate Professor and Chair, Psychology Program
Chief Assessment Officer for Academic Affairs
California State University Channel Islands
One University Drive
Camarillo, CA 93012

805.437.8997 (p)
805.437.8951 (f)

[hidden email]



From: Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tue 7/18/2006 11:12 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile


You still haven't answered my question as to why most statisticians perfer SAS to SPSS; or why it's become common knowledge that SAS outperforms SPSS in so many respects.  Have you read the pdf document at UCLA?  It was written in 2005 * hardly outdated.

Moreover, you stated that you received a Ph.D. in Economics, and then in parentheses placed the term econometrics.  I was unaware that
any universities award degrees specifically in econometrics.  Are you trying to say that you earned a degree in economics and specialized in econometrics.

By the way, from what University have you earned your Ph.D. and at what universities have you taught.  How were you able to join a statistics department as a tenure track faculty member with a degree in economics, despite your apparent expertise as an econometrician.

Personally, I received my Ph.Ds from Duke and UNC-CH.   Check out US  News and World Report.  You'll discover that with respect to my fields of study, each of these schools is consistently ranked among the best in my areas of study.


>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 1:55 PM >>>
As a matter of fact, I do not agree with you in the slightest when you consider the power of the open source modules that can be plugged in to SPSS via programmability and combined with the power and elegance of the Python language and the SPSS engine.  Maybe you should try it.

And as another matter of fact, I happen to have a Ph. D. in Economics (econometrics), and taught in a top-tier university in the Economics and Statistics departments for 13 years before joining SPSS.

I have no interest in badmouthing SAS or other competing products.  Each has strengths and weaknesses.  Instead, I try to learn what those are.

-Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Teitelman temp2 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [hidden email]; Peck, Jon
Subject: Re: SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSSfile

I'm sure that you'd agree with me that it's patently obvious that the SPSS programming language hardly compares to SAS' SAS/IML module.  There's simply no such comparison.  SAS's matrix programming language is far superior to SPSS' matrix programming language.

And the question still remains: why do most statisticians choose SAS over SPSS?  You tell me why such is the case.  Have you been a statistics student in a graduate level program * or a mathematics student?

>>> "Peck, Jon" <[hidden email]> 7/18/2006 12:37 PM >>>
First, let's correct the facts.  SPSS in fact does have a matrix language built in.  It has 18 statement types, 59 functions, and 20 operators.  Users on this list have posted extensive programs using it.

Second, using the programmability features of SPSS 14, you have access to a vast array of scientifically oriented modules from third parties.  For example, scipy and numpy can be downloaded free and used within SPSS.

Here is the summary description of scipy

SciPy is an open source library of scientific tools for Python. SciPy gathers a variety of high level science and engineering modules together as a single package. SciPy provides modules for statistics, optimization, integration, linear algebra, Fourier transforms, signal and image processing, genetic algorithms, ODE solvers, special functions, and more. SciPy requires and supplements NumPy, which provides a multidimensional array object and other basic functionality.

Here are a few random examples of simple things you can do with this library within BEGIN PROGRAM in SPSS.  Since you can read the SPSS cases and output in this mode, the inputs can be anything in SPSS.

factorial and combination functions:

import scipy
scipy.factorial(4)
 -> array(24.0)
int(scipy.factorial(4))
-> 24
scipy.factorial(4.1)
-> array(27.931753738368371)  (Gamma function)
scipy.factorial(50, exact=1)
 -> 30414093201713378043612608166064768844377641568960512000000000000L

matrix operations:
import scipy
A = scipy.mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
print A
-> matrix [[1 3 5]
 [2 5 1]
 [2 3 8]]
print A.I
-> matrix([[-1.48,  0.36,  0.88],
[ 0.56,  0.08, -0.36],
 [ 0.16, -0.12,  0.04]])
(A * A.I = identity matrix)
scipy.linalg.det(A)
-> -25


solving linear equations (nonlinear also available):
from scipy import *
A= mat('[1 3 5;2 5 1;2 3 8]')
b = mat('[10;8;3]')
Solve linear equations Ax = b...
A.I*b
or
linalg.solve(A,b)

Regards,
Jon Peck
SPSS

-----Original Message-----
From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joseph Teitelman temp2
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:15 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] SV: For those in need of running SAS using an SPSS file
[snip]

Next, Stat/IML is a matrix  programming language which comes along with SAS.  It is extremely powerful.  SPSS has no matrix programming language.  And from what I've been told, neither does Stata.
[>>>Peck, Jon] [snip]

Those were my impressions.

Joe Teitelman