SPSSX Discussion

What have the Romans ever done for us?

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John F Hall

What have the Romans ever done for us?

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

Marta Garcia-Granero

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

John F Hall wrote:
>
> Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation,
> the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a
> fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done
> for us?"
>
> You forgot satire.
John, Albert-Jan can't modify the sentence, because he is quoting Monty
Python's "Life of Brian" (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python%27s_Life_of_Brian ).

Best regards,
Marta GG

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John F Hall

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Marta

I didn't want him to change the message, just to point out something else the Romans did, but only because I used Juvenal as an example in one of my tutorials yesterday. Come to think of it GUI sounds like the Stasi or other police. "Life of Brian"? How about Orson Welles' line about the Swiss, ending in "...the cuckoo clock!"

John

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:27 AM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

John F Hall wrote:
>
> Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation,
> the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a
> fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done
> for us?"
>
> You forgot satire.
John, Albert-Jan can't modify the sentence, because he is quoting Monty
Python's "Life of Brian" (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python%27s_Life_of_Brian ).

Best regards,
Marta GG

=====================
To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
[hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
command. To leave the list, send the command
SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
INFO REFCARD

Julius Sim

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

In reply to this post by John F Hall

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

John F Hall

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

statisticsdoc

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Is this error an instance of Juvenal delinquency?
Sorry....
Steve B

www.StatisticsDoc.com

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:31:53 +0200

To: <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

Albert-Jan Roskam

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

In reply to this post by John F Hall

:-) Actually, it's a quote from Monty Python's "Life of Brian", but I supect you knew that already.

Monty Python is great (and the Python programming language too, btw)

Cheers!!
Albert-Jan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- On Thu, 4/22/10, John F Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] What have the Romans ever done for us?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thursday, April 22, 2010, 4:31 PM

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: Julius Sim

To: SPSSX-L@...

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

statisticsdoc

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Rumour has it that the programming language got its name because the developers were fans of the comedy troupe.
Cheers,
Steve Brand

www.StatisticsDoc.com

From: Albert-Jan Roskam <[hidden email]>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 08:43:31 -0700

To: <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

:-) Actually, it's a quote from Monty Python's "Life of Brian", but I supect you knew that already.

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SPSSX-L] What have the Romans ever done for us?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thursday, April 22, 2010, 4:31 PM

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: Julius Sim

To: SPSSX-L@...

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

Sharp, Joe P.

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

In reply to this post by John F Hall

John,

If that tutorial involving Juvenal is available online, I'd love to see it.

Marta GG,

¿De donde escribe Vd.?

-- Joe (José) S, estudiante de español y estadísticas

Español y estadíFrom: SPSSX(r) Discussion [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John F Hall [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Marta

John

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:27 AM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

John F Hall wrote:
>
> Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation,
> the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a
> fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done
> for us?"
>
> You forgot satire.
John, Albert-Jan can't modify the sentence, because he is quoting Monty
Python's "Life of Brian" (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python%27s_Life_of_Brian ).

Best regards,
Marta GG

=====================
To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to
[hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the
command. To leave the list, send the command
SIGNOFF SPSSX-L
For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command
INFO REFCARD

====================To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

John F Hall

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

In reply to this post by statisticsdoc

Steve

More like senile dementia! I did the Juvenal in 1958 or 59, before I discovered Algol in 1964 (just like Latin prose) and SPSS in 1972.

The first time I ever used SPSS (not!) was in a desperate attempt to obtain badly delayed results from a live "Life in Oxford" survey designed and conducted from scratch (under my supervision) by students on the 1972 SSRC Survey Methods Summer School at St Edmund Hall, Oxford. By the final evening of the course we had managed to code and enter all the data and get preliiminary frequency counts, but little else. I wanted to have much more analysis to give students in return for all their efforts, but Clive Payne (our resident SPSS wizard, who up to then had done all the computing) had to leave early (it was his wife's birthday). He gave me the only manual (first time I'd ever seen it!) and I was left on my own in the computer centre with only the operator for company. Despite heroic efforts from both us, we obtained nothing but indecipherable error messages and I was eventually thrown out at midnight as the operator wanted to go home. On top of that I missed my dinner and the end-of-course party!

(1975 cartoon by Colin Brown, then a trainee researcher in the

SSRC Survey Unit, now Policy Director at the Office of Fair Trading)

Check the link much stress to see how it felt.

I felt almost the same in 2001 when I scrounged a copy of SPSS11 for Windows from SPSS France to help review the 1st edition of Julie Pallant SPSS Survival Manual. which omits swathes of SPSS facilities and has not a line of syntax in sight (actually two words added with PASTE to modify a correlation): none in 2nd edition either. Apart from that it's an excellent book for desperate and lonely dissertation writers in psychology and inferential statistics. See my (different) extensive critical reviews of both on: http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/8-spss-text-books.html

The tutorials on my website (all freely downloadable) should help newcomers to SPSS to avoid all that hassle. They are all syntax based, but many have parallel examples using the drop-down menus. I'm currently updating many of them from SPSS15 to PASW18 and will post a note to the list when they've been uploaded and verified.

My opinion of Mickey (Mindless) Mouse computing is aptly summed up in the video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqLlmQYRols I used in my Old Dog, Old Tricks presentation to ASSESS (SPSS users) in 2006.

Perhaps I should say I am (or was) a survey researcher, so my approach to SPSS is biased by having used it on tens of dozens of ad-hoc surveys, ranging from major national to small local studies. My tutorials are aimed at the hundreds of researchers I have advised and students I have taught, many of the latter inexperienced and anxious about numbers, some downright hostile to empirical research. They invariably found my courses fun.

John

PS Public sector researchers used to quip, "Research is a substitute for action", to which some of us added, "...and SPSS is a substitute for thought!" At least the Romans gave us Latin, which makes you think.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email] ; [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:13 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Is this error an instance of Juvenal delinquency?
Sorry....
Steve B
www.StatisticsDoc.com

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:31:53 +0200

To: <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

Martin Holt

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Enough already ! This was funny when Monty Python did it, but now we're doing the equivalent of painting "Romanes eunt domum" over the city walls 100 times.....time to return to the real world, folks ?

Martin

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 18:06:50
Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Steve

More like senile dementia! I did the Juvenal in 1958 or 59, before I discovered Algol in 1964 (just like Latin prose) and SPSS in 1972.

(1975 cartoon by Colin Brown, then a trainee researcher in the

SSRC Survey Unit, now Policy Director at the Office of Fair Trading)

Check the link much stress to see how it felt.

John

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email] ; [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:13 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Is this error an instance of Juvenal delinquency?
Sorry....
Steve B
www.StatisticsDoc.com

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:31:53 +0200

To: <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John

John F Hall

Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

It's actually "Romani", first declension. nominative case, masculine plural. At least this thread was fun, unlike all that boring technical stuff. Perhaps we should have a separate site for people who have to teach SPSS to social research trainees and students?

In any case I got an appreciative personal reply from Steve Brand

"John,

By the way, you have a wonderful web site. I have book marked it and will recommend the tutorials to students and clients alike.

Best,

Stephen Brand"

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 12:20 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Enough already ! This was funny when Monty Python did it, but now we're doing the equivalent of painting "Romanes eunt domum" over the city walls 100 times.....time to return to the real world, folks ?

Martin

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, 22 April, 2010 18:06:50
Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Steve

More like senile dementia! I did the Juvenal in 1958 or 59, before I discovered Algol in 1964 (just like Latin prose) and SPSS in 1972.

The first time I ever used SPSS (not!) was in a desperate attempt to obtain badly delayed results from a live "Life in Oxford" survey designed and conducted from scratch (under my supervision) by students on the 1972 SSRC Survey Methods Summer School at St Edmund Hall, Oxford. By the final evening of the course we had managed to code and enter all the data and get preliiminary frequency counts, but little else. I wanted to have much more analysis to give students in return for all their efforts, but Clive Payne (our resident SPSS wizard, who up to then had done all the computing) had to leave early (it was his wife's birthday). He gave me the only manual (first time I'd ever seen it!) and I was left on my own in the computer centre with only the operator for company. Despite heroic efforts from both us, we obtained nothing but indecipherable error messages and I was eventually thrown out at midnight as the operator wanted to go home. On top of that I missed my dinner and the end-of-course party!

(1975 cartoon by Colin Brown, then a trainee researcher in the

SSRC Survey Unit, now Policy Director at the Office of Fair Trading)

Check the link much stress to see how it felt.

I felt almost the same in 2001 when I scrounged a copy of SPSS11 for Windows from SPSS France to help review the 1st edition of Julie Pallant SPSS Survival Manual. which omits swathes of SPSS facilities and has not a line of syntax in sight (actually two words added with PASTE to modify a correlation): none in 2nd edition either. Apart from that it's an excellent book for desperate and lonely dissertation writers in psychology and inferential statistics. See my (different) extensive critical reviews of both on: http://surveyresearch.weebly.com/8-spss-text-books.html

The tutorials on my website (all freely downloadable) should help newcomers to SPSS to avoid all that hassle. They are all syntax based, but many have parallel examples using the drop-down menus. I'm currently updating many of them from SPSS15 to PASW18 and will post a note to the list when they've been uploaded and verified.

My opinion of Mickey (Mindless) Mouse computing is aptly summed up in the video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqLlmQYRols I used in my Old Dog, Old Tricks presentation to ASSESS (SPSS users) in 2006.

Perhaps I should say I am (or was) a survey researcher, so my approach to SPSS is biased by having used it on tens of dozens of ad-hoc surveys, ranging from major national to small local studies. My tutorials are aimed at the hundreds of researchers I have advised and students I have taught, many of the latter inexperienced and anxious about numbers, some downright hostile to empirical research. They invariably found my courses fun.

John

PS Public sector researchers used to quip, "Research is a substitute for action", to which some of us added, "...and SPSS is a substitute for thought!" At least the Romans gave us Latin, which makes you think.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email] ; [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 5:13 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

Is this error an instance of Juvenal delinquency?
Sorry....
Steve B
www.StatisticsDoc.com

From: John F Hall <[hidden email]>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:31:53 +0200

To: <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

I stand corrected. It was more than 50 years ago that I read Juvenal. Memory must be slipping.

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 4:18 PM

Subject: Re: What have the Romans ever done for us?

'Fas est' means 'it is proper', so the quotation allows, rather than forbids, what you have in mind! The full quotation is 'cuius ad effigiem non tantum meiere fas est', the 'non tantum' ('not only') leaving open, somewhat euphemistically, the possibility of worse insults to the statue.

Julius

On 22/04/2010 09:46, John F Hall wrote:

Albert-Jan

Re: your signature comment, "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

You forgot satire.

Juvenal once wrote, Pariant montes, nascetur ridiculus mus (The mountains are in labour, a silly little mouse is born) Exactly how I feel about using drop-down menus to do basic operations (DATA LIST, VAR LAB, VAL LAB, RECODE, COMPUTE, IF, FREQ, CROS, MEANS) when syntax is invariably far quicker and easier.

He also wrote, "Cuius imaginem meiere fas est" (Do not piss on this person's statue). Does this mean the IBM PASW team will now come and arrest me?

John